Papacy

[Heathen Storm]

Would it be possible to have the papacy as an emerging faction, and still be able to use crusades when it does emerges? Or maybe have the pope off map, and after a certain event he could "emerge" and his faction be given Rome?

[Gigantus]

First time I hear that concept - sounds interesting. I would say that the papal effects are in play from round one, regardless of what you do as long as the faction is present. Otherwise it would not work if you do not have a pope at all - which it does if memory serves right. Setting the pope as an emergent faction should work and there is a tutorial around on how to transfer settlements to a faction.
If you set him off map the demand (mission) for Rome may still fire.

[Heathen Storm]

First time I hear that concept - sounds interesting. I would say that the papal effects are in play from round one, regardless of what you do as long as the faction is present. Otherwise it would not work if you do not have a pope at all - which it does if memory serves right. Setting the pope as an emergent faction should work and there is a tutorial around on how to transfer settlements to a faction.
If you set him off map the demand (mission) for Rome may still fire.

Well, my mod starts in 968 and that's clearly long before the Crusades began. So I thought that it may be possible to not allow crusades to be launched until specific conditions are met. So if I understand correctly, having the pope as an emergent faction would allow crusades to work when he emerges?

[Gigantus]

I am assuming that having the papal states present (emergent being present in the sense of 'listed in descr_strat') will automatically activate the special faction abilities - calling a crusade is one of them.
There is a setting in the descr_campaign_db that is supposed to regulate when the first call to crusade (and jihad) is possible but I think it doesn't work the way it's supposed to:

   <crusades>
      <required_jihad_piety int="4"/>
      <max_disband_progress float="20.0"/>
      <near_target_no_disband_distance float="4.0"/>
      <disband_progress_window float="3"/>
      <crusade_called_start_turn float="20"/>
      <jihad_called_start_turn float="20"/>
      <movement_points_modifier float="2.0"/>
   </crusades>

[Heathen Storm]

I am assuming that having the papal states present (emergent being present in the sense of 'listed in descr_strat') will automatically activate the special faction abilities - calling a crusade is one of them.
There is a setting in the descr_campaign_db that is supposed to regulate when the first call to crusade (and jihad) is possible but I think it doesn't work the way it's supposed to:

   <crusades>
      <required_jihad_piety int="4"/>
      <max_disband_progress float="20.0"/>
      <near_target_no_disband_distance float="4.0"/>
      <disband_progress_window float="3"/>
      <crusade_called_start_turn float="20"/>
      <jihad_called_start_turn float="20"/>
      <movement_points_modifier float="2.0"/>
   </crusades>

IIRC there was a submod for the Third Age: Total War that gave an option at what turn "invasions" (crusades) would start - turn 50 or turn 100. Maybe it does work? If it does, that might achieve something close to what I want - although would it be possible for crusades to start when a city is taken by certain factions?

[Withwnar]

IIRC there was a submod for the Third Age: Total War that gave an option at what turn "invasions" (crusades) would start - turn 50 or turn 100. Maybe it does work? If it does, that might achieve something close to what I want - although would it be possible for crusades to start when a city is taken by certain factions?

In TATW the papal_states don't have any priests at campaign start - and they can't recruit their own ... there are no priests in TATW. At a certain turn a priest is spawned by script and from that point on crusades can start.

So I guess papal_states don't have a pope unless they have a priest. I don't know if that logic would still work for factions that can have priests.

If it does work then, yes, that priest-spawning script can be wrapped in certain conditions, such as settlement ownership.

[Heathen Storm]

In TATW the papal_states don't have any priests at campaign start - and they can't recruit their own ... there are no priests in TATW. At a certain turn a priest is spawned by script and from that point on crusades can start.

So I guess papal_states don't have a pope unless they have a priest. I don't know if that logic would still work for factions that can have priests.

If it does work then, yes, that priest-spawning script can be wrapped in certain conditions, such as settlement ownership.

That is strange lol

[Gigantus]

That would have to be via script - and I don't think you can call a crusade via script, even via create_mission. The only mission I could think of would be this one and I haven't got the slightest idea which parameters are needed in the script.

mission crusade_active ; (NOT SUITABLE FOR VARIANTS)
{
    duration 0
    paybacks
    {
        payback_id empty_payback
    }

    eligible_religions
    {
        catholic
    }
}

[Gigantus]

Well, the pope is nothing but a faction leader - so having a priest makes sense - jihad requires a priest with a certain level of piety as well.

[Withwnar]

In TATW there is no faction leader for papal_states. Just two inquisitors, one settlement, and later, via that script I mentioned, one priest. So I guess that priest automatically becomes pope and up until then the papal_states have no faction leader / pope.

What I'm wondering is, if this same thing was done to the papal_states in a mod whose other factions do have priests, then would one of those other faction priests become pope instead?

[Heathen Storm]

In TATW there is no faction leader for papal_states. Just two inquisitors, one settlement, and later, via that script I mentioned, one priest. So I guess that priest automatically becomes pope and up until then the papal_states have no faction leader / pope.

What I'm wondering is, if this same thing was done to the papal_states in a mod whose other factions do have priests, then would one of those other faction priests become pope instead?

Well, it DOES have a faction leader, he's just in a little tiny corner of the map
This will have to be experimented with.

[Withwnar]

Only after that script triggers. Until then that settlement - named "Sauron" - is all they have, plus a couple of inquisitors and one unit as a garrison. Look at descr_strat and campaign_script.

[BM309K58SMERCH]

Erm, sorry, but is there a way to completely remove the Papal States faction as a whole? (And remove the Jihad, Crusade, and Papal system)?
From my modding experience, it seems really harder than a simple removing of the "special_faction_type papal_faction" and the whole Papal states entry in the descr_sm_factions.

[Gigantus]

All the special stuff (crusade, cardinal election) is governed by the special faction entry in descr_sm_factions - you can give it to any (one) faction.
To restrict jihad you will have to remove the muslim religion. A partial solution would be to set the piety requirement in descr_campaign_db to 10 for the imam to be able to call a jihad. Don't think 11 will be accepted, so it remains a partial solution.

[Withwnar]

To restrict jihad you will have to remove the muslim religion. A partial solution would be to set the piety requirement in descr_campaign_db to 10 for the imam to be able to call a jihad. Don't think 11 will be accepted, so it remains a partial solution.

Or just remove imams altogether.

[Gigantus]

Or just remove imams altogether.

Dooooh.. I am getting old.

[TMK]

All the special stuff (crusade, cardinal election) is governed by the special faction entry in descr_sm_factions - you can give it to any (one) faction.
To restrict jihad you will have to remove the muslim religion. A partial solution would be to set the piety requirement in descr_campaign_db to 10 for the imam to be able to call a jihad. Don't think 11 will be accepted, so it remains a partial solution.

Really? So we can make another faction, lets say moors have the papacy? Does the faction need to be catholic?

[Withwnar]

Aren't we all?

Alternatively, if you want imams but not jihads, you could adjust the traits and ancillaries that give piety to keep it below the jihad-calling threshold. e.g. Add an "and Attribute Piety < 5" condition to them and set the threshold to very high (as Gigantus said).

Or perhaps this would be enough: in descr_campign_db.xml set jihad_called_start_turn to an extremely high turn number, like 999.

[Gigantus]

I seem to recall that the crusade\jihad_called_start_turn entry doesn't work - eg it happens at\after turn 20 regardless what you do.

[Gigantus]

Never tested it - but I think you can safely assume that catholic is a must. How else would it be determined who gets to suffer the inquisitor or whom to excommunicate. Come to think of it - that would be really weird, but the favor stuff would also have to be changed (descr_faction_standing). Summary - maybe possible with another religion, but not worth all the effort, too many files refer to it.