Darth_Formations for ATW ready!

**DARTH VADER** · July 07, 2006, 09:04 AM

I have finished the formations and will send the files to Agraes and border_Reiver.

The new techniques that will be available in my upcoming formations for DarthMod_8.0 will be used here as well so no need for update later.
I issue this topic for all the beta testers to state here their general opinion prior to release than send me PMs.

(I have too many PMs to handle any more and some are forgotten to be replied)

I will visit the forum to see the results.
You can post screenshots also to provide me feedback for possible flaws you have found to fix them.

---edit---

Forgot to tell you that I have fixed a special Arthur's formation that gives benefit to his knights if you have for him....

**The Border Reiver** · July 07, 2006, 09:09 PM

Hi Darth

Thanks for these, I'll be sure to beta test them today and have some feedback and screenshots this weekend.

From all of us at ATW.....thanks mate (rubs hands together)

border reiver

**Stuie** · July 08, 2006, 10:32 AM

Darth - can you double check the player formations? Look what happened to one of my units:

Edit: I reverted to the original files, loaded the battle again, and the same thing is happening - so it's not your files. Weird. Any idea what might cause this??

Edit2: Never mind. Found the problem.

**swabian** · July 08, 2006, 12:21 PM

Darth! Great work, oh dark lord, but can you implement the following changes please:

Every faction has (i think) at last two units that have the shield wall capability. Shieldwalls should be massively used by the AI with any faction. It's simply a huge disadvantage for the AI if it doesn't use the shield wall capability where it can be used.

And...
We'd need a formation in the shape of a flat isosceles triangle with heavy infantry concentrated in the center (berserkers in the front), spearmen in the front and on the flanks and cavalry on the flanks. This shall be the standart formation for the germanics. Please no heavy infantry on the flanks, except heavy spearmen eventually.

It would be great if you could do that.

**DARTH VADER** · July 09, 2006, 05:44 PM

@The Border Reiver:
Surely waiting the results

@Stuie:
What was it?

@swabian:
Like an infantry semi wedge? I can fix this for the AI to swap to this only when attacking and revert to defensive stance in more effective formation already having now.

Post me here your test battles.

**swabian** · July 09, 2006, 06:19 PM

Hi Darth! No, i mean a full wedge, like the greek delta symbol. (And please shield walls for all factions!! )

something like this:

...............HH
.......S....HHHHH...S
...MMMM....G....MMMM
LLLLLL...AAAAA...LLLLLLL ..........CCCCCCC

H=elite/berserkers, S=skirmisher, M=medium, G=general, A=archer,L=light

Purpose: Break the enemies center and split his forces in two. Then flank with cavalry. If there is no cavalry, H should be used in place of C.

So you mean this is only possible in combination with going back to defensive stance? Well, that would be no problem, as long as they charged before this.

Thank you!

**DARTH VADER** · July 09, 2006, 06:24 PM

It could be done...but as a defence formation AI would be incompetent. That is why I propose having this available to be transformed mid game for attack AI purposes.

As for shield wall...ok no problem.

**swabian** · July 09, 2006, 06:39 PM

The strength of this structure is its simplicity: Heavy infantry in the front and the rest as shown above. BTW spearmen should be allways in the first line, if this is possible. So heavy spearman stand in front of heavy swords/axes/..., medium spearman in front of medium sword/axes... , light spears in front of light swords/axes... and cavalry on the flanks.

It's mainly an offensive formation, but it can be used defensively as well. Let's just try how the AI can deal with it. Why do you think the AI would be incompetent?

**swabian** · July 12, 2006, 10:46 AM

Darth,

I quote one of the ATW historians, Ranika:

'Of the foe's charge, or when defending, one may place his Cliarthairi forward, and the warbands behind, or upon flanks, and mutually then they pelt the foe with missile, and if horse there is, they may countercharge from the left or right flank, with missiles on the opposing. The soldiers fore hold close their shields and absorb the charge, then press forward and push the enemy back, as the warbands or horse encircle the flank'

A few things; here the 'heavy infantry' are in the front, in a shield wall. On the left or right flank are missiles, light infantry behind in the center, and the opposing flank has the cavalry.

'Three lines then of the men (the Cliarthairi; heavy/elite infantry, the regular units), with the warbands before them (missiles/skirmishers in front) and the footmen on their sides (light infantry on flanks), and horse behind'

Essentially, heavy infantry in three lines in front of one another; missiles in front of them, light infantry to the flanks, cavalry behind the formation.

We'd need these two types for the Gaels. I think this shouldn't be a problem for the AI.

**swabian** · July 13, 2006, 08:24 PM

And the germanic delta formation is ok'ed too by hross (the germanics guy)... as it seems.

**swabian** · July 22, 2006, 09:34 PM

there is also this issue with archers beeing ordered in too long lines, the problem is not that the single units are formated in lines, they surpass the flanks too far if multiple archers are arranged in one line, while the infantry is compact in the center. maybe they could be positioned in double lines?

**DARTH VADER** · July 23, 2006, 12:28 AM

Yes ...in which formation you see that more?

**swabian** · July 23, 2006, 07:57 AM

the problem occurs in every formation actually, but only if there are many (more than 3) archer units, of course

two examples:

my suggested solution is sometrhing like this (only regarding the archers! there should be some infantry on the outmost flanks, else the archers are easy pray, for both, AI and the human player)

**ColdFire** · July 25, 2006, 02:48 PM

Daths work can somtimes have mad results

**DARTH VADER** · August 07, 2006, 03:56 PM

Since I am near completion pls tell me to which factions (The internal names not the ATW) you want the wedge barbarian formation.

Tell me if Arthur's Formation has worked well.

and also to swabian:

These 2 special formations refer to which factions (internal names)

**Agraes** · August 08, 2006, 02:31 AM

Hi Darth Lord :wink:

Since I am near completion pls tell me to which factions (The internal names not the ATW) you want the wedge barbarian formation.

Alemanni
Franks
Saxons
Slave

These 2 special formations refer to which factions (internal names)

Burgundii
Sassanids
Lombardi
Celts
Slave
Eventually Berbers (as Ynis Manaw is a Brytho-Gaelic faction)

**DARTH VADER** · August 08, 2006, 12:38 PM

Have finished.

Did not implement shield wall to all formations due to inability to use effective maneuvering for barbarian AI.

Will upload in 2 days max and maybe I will send to you privately to test if you want.