Starting locations of Hungary

[Quark]

Hi folks, I need some advice from anyone more familair with the history of Hungary pls. I am editing my map and will be loosing Kassa/Košice as its to modern for a 1100's game imo.

So my thoughts are to add
either Pecs or Kalosca in the south
and then Biograd or Zadar

to represent Croatia and Hungary taking control of this region after the Battle of Gvozd Mountain in 1097. This will also give Venice more of a challenge along the coast and I believe represent the History better. I can event either Biograd or Zadar to be attacked by Venice for a player of Hungary so not so much worried about which I choose, just looking for which was the most active in the period.

Thanks for any help

[Stario]

You should keep Košice and instead loose one of the eastern Khwarezmian regions etc. (nothing much happens as far east of the map anyways). I still feel Europe is under represented in this mod; but blame the settlement limit for that.

[Quark]

ján0šík: I cannot find any reference to it before 1230 as a place of note, and it seems to only have become a factor after re-settlement by german colonists (I tried London, Berkely, Princeton, Fordham etc). I had a look at Kalocsa, Nitra, Pecs and Pozsony, but location wise on the map Pecs or Kalosca makes more sense.

As for east of map - that kind of depends if you play SS over there , and the city sizes on that part of the map are far greater than any in Hungary in the period. So I just want to rebalance Hungary a bit and make sure I have included every minor faction for scripting purposes. However my acess to records on Hungarian medieval populations is limited, so I was hoping for some quick help from someone with more knowledge.

Thanks for answering

[Stario]

ján0šík: I cannot find any reference to it before 1230 as a place of note, and it seems to only have become a factor after re-settlement by german colonists (I tried London, Berkely, Princeton, Fordham etc). I had a look at Kalocsa, Nitra, Pecs and Pozsony, but location wise on the map Pecs or Kalosca makes more sense.

As for east of map - that kind of depends if you play SS over there , and the city sizes on that part of the map are far greater than any in Hungary in the period. So I just want to rebalance Hungary a bit and make sure I have included every minor faction for scripting purposes. However my acess to records on Hungarian medieval populations is limited, so I was hoping for some quick help from someone with more knowledge.

Thanks for answering

I seemed to have read somewhere that the region was settled in 8th-9th century by a Slavic community- confirmed by a study of the fortified settlement at Breh in the Krásna nad Hornádom region. I've also read various literature of the Battle of Rozgony, and at times references to the regions existence is asserted as at least 200 years prior (if true, this would place the regions existence to around the early 12th century). Although, Košice was probably insignificant until the 14th century. However, by around 1350 it was of great significance, & was on par with the capital Buda. So I guess it depends on how long you are planning to play your early campaign. Though, I think I am somewhat biased (being form Slovakian ethnicity), my reasoning of keeping the settlement is primary for rp value. With that said I think, Pecs and Zadar would better represent the region (but if you can keep all three even better- but I guess that depends where/how you like to play).

[RollingWave]

from a population purportion POV Europe is underrepresented in France and Italy but massively over represetned in the British Isles and Scandinavia.

For Croatia, the Kingdom of Croatia's capital was probably at Knin in it's final stage, though Zadar was probably the biggest city within it's realm, with 199 region limit you need to keep things in relative prespective. the best solution is probably using PSF which will give you the ability to pretty much put any existing named settlements and castles onto the map. (as long as they're not right next to each other or something.) for example this was my test attempt in HURB (not going to be in though until later on. for the test version I have most of the balkans covered but not yet up to Hungary)



my own maps' relative purpotional distribution is soemthing like this. (it's not too different from SS MAPs, we'll disagree on some details but the general trend is similar)



(as you can see I have Hungary starting with Croatia already. though I'm unsure if I should move the capital region from Zagreb, which was starting to become bigger during that time as a Cathedral was already being built their. where as Zadar changed hands between Venice and Hungary quiet a bit so using it as the core settlement is problematic, and Knin's importance seem to dwindle during the Hungarian era.)

My general regions changed in the Venice to Balkan region is

Add:

Trieste

Ras (center of the eventual Kingdom of Serbia)

Skhoder (center of the Dukjla region, an obviously defined and important region in medieval times)

Vrhbosna (center of Bosnia, while it's underdeveloped it was already an obviously defined region)

Nis (center of the Theme of Sirium region that's in the middle of Serb / Bulgaria / Byznatium / Hungarian conflict through much of this period)

Tarnovo (it was the capital of the second bulgarian empire, the omision of a clear Bulgarian region while having a Wallachian region was a real WTF moment in the SS original map. Wallachia as a concept didn't even exist in 1100, it only became gradually apparent by around the 14th C or so.)

Remove:

Skojpe (relavent but not as important as Ras on political terms)
Belgrade (Not very significant at that point )
Tragoviste (may not have even existed in 1100)

[Quark]

RollingWave: Hi, I already have Tarnovo on my map, as you say its weird not to have Bulgaria probably active in the campaign. I mainly play Byzantium, so I need it there anyway to give me a kicking in the early part of the game. Similarly I like Trieste for the Patriarchate of Aquileia, but Ras for Serbia is debateable, as Ras's existence is short term, maybe Skopje is better as it was the capital of the 1st Serbian Empire and does become capital again briefly in 1282-1300, as well as existing for whole campaign. While Nis is indeed a important location I have only 199 options to play with, so dont think that its viable given map location.

As for PSF, while they are a great way of showing all the other places we want on the map, I feel they just handicap the AI even more, so avoid using them. Lets hope Rome II will alow us more areas and we can port SS over to it in the future .

Zagreb is a unimportant location at the start of the game, and Trieste serves as a similar location to fight over. The fact that Venice and Hungary fight over Zadar is kind of the point . So I might just dump Zagreb, not sure about the effect on game developemnt though, which at the end of the day is the point - to provide a challenging scenario within the bounds of history.

Guess I will just go with Zadar and Pecs and see how the game plays out.

Thanks