Alps, other mountain passes

[West3634]

One thing i would really like to see is for armies to take longer to get through passes such as the alps. As we know from Hannibal it wasnt something easy. Maybe a few things could be implemented for this, for example higher upkeep in these areas, only certain units being able to get through easily (heavily armoured cavalry, elephants are unable and finally attrition, serious attrition.

What are your views on this ? Also what features could be used to make crossing these passes harder

[Aeneas Veneratio]

According to historians Hannibal had around 38,000 infantry, 8,000 cavalry, and 37 war elephants as he reached the Rhône. After he crossed the Alps and arrived in Italy, he had - according to Polybius -
20,000 foot soldiers and 4,000 horsemen, and only a few elephants left.

If it should be realistic, it should be possible to cross the Alps and the Pyrenees with elephants and heavily armored cavalry. Crossing with these sort of troops would, however, have a high attrition penalty to adequately show the obstacles encountered by Hannibal. Even regular troops should have a moderate to high attrition penalty.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

According to historians Hannibal had around 38,000 infantry, 8,000 cavalry, and 37 war elephants as he reached the Rhône. After he crossed the Alps and arrived in Italy, he had - according to Polybius -
20,000 foot soldiers and 4,000 horsemen, and only a few elephants left.

If it should be realistic, it should be possible to cross the Alps and the Pyrenees with elephants and heavily armored cavalry. Crossing with these sort of troops would, however, have a high attrition penalty to adequately show the obstacles encountered by Hannibal. Even regular troops should have a moderate to high attrition penalty.

As his Brother Hasdrubal crossed the same way in nearly the same year time with a bigger army he loses nearly no troops. I am not sure but i beleave Polybios used lost sources which claimed these numbers called by Hannibal themself and some historians are on the opinion that Hannibal had his reasons to overhigh the number of loses to made his Crossing more dramaticaly and his achievment bigger.

[West3634]

Should barbarians be able to cross easily ? It was always something which i hated in RTW, the idea that countless armies could cross the alps easily. Such as in RS

[Aeneas Veneratio]

Local tribes would probably be more familiar with the terrain, and therefore able to cross without suffering so much from attrition.

As for making that into a gameplay mechanic, I would say that factions/nations with close proximity to certain mountain ranges (the mountains in Anatolia, the Pyreness and the Alps) are better at crossing them. It could also be a "tech", which make one's faction better at crossing dangerous environments, like marches and mountains.

[Master.Mind]

But you have to take into account that Hannibal crossed the Alps in the middle of winter

[Rorarii]

If only Hannibal could have convinced more keltic tribes to join his cause .. and not ambush him in disasterous situations. problem is, you convince one tribe but have to fight their enemy, the next tribe along!

anyway, Hannibals aim wasn't to move a huge army into italy, it was to win battles, build his reputation and convince Romes sub-cultures to revolt - Etruscans, Samnites, sabines???, southern greeks.

R

[zg0301zg]

If only Hannibal could have convinced more keltic tribes to join his cause .. and not ambush him in disasterous situations. problem is, you convince one tribe but have to fight their enemy, the next tribe along!

anyway, Hannibals aim wasn't to move a huge army into italy, it was to win battles, build his reputation and convince Romes sub-cultures to revolt - Etruscans, Samnites, sabines???, southern greeks.

R

hm not exactly, primarily he wanted to defeat Rome, since during 1st punic war he was only a child and when they had to sign the capitulation he made an oath to punish Rome.
I dont remember how many elephants he brought on the campaign what I do know he lost 3rd of his army by crossing the Alps and only 1 elephant surrvived, his mistake was when instead of breaching the Romes gate, he was drawn back to Carthage since Scipio junior went to Carthage so Hanniball was recalled which later on proved to be costly mistake...

Anyhow I agree that certain units have to suffer more penalty for attrition and terrain, you cant carry catapults over mountains etc..... you cant besiged into forever without costs etc.... pure logic and I will be just fine

[Grimbold]

Should barbarians be able to cross easily ? It was always something which i hated in RTW, the idea that countless armies could cross the alps easily. Such as in RS

RS as in Roma Surrectum? The is no mountain pass on the Alps in RS, not on it's most recent version at least.

[Condottiere 40K]

Probably his refusal to visit the usual tourist traps and buy quaint and/or expensive souvenirs with his tour group really annoyed the locals.

[Asgaroth]

If only Hannibal could have convinced more keltic tribes to join his cause .. and not ambush him in disasterous situations. problem is, you convince one tribe but have to fight their enemy, the next tribe along!

Yup, no wonder why has he lost so many troops. He has been ambushed several times on his journey to Rome.

Not to mention that he was also betrayed by few tribes and lead into ambushes.

[RTKHamilcar]

yes they should definately have better representation of moutains and passes, that along with the better ambushes will make for some serious need to survey and spy and preplan etc... not just go gung-ho, make the player think about consequences and supply lines and consider alternate routes etc...

[Master.Mind]

Accordingt to this article http://www.cracked.com/article_18868...ern-world.html ( scroll down to Hannibal's army is devastated by a crane) Hannibal caused most of his losses himself.
However I'm willing to admit that the validity information has to be taken with a grain of salt considering where it comes from

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

Accordingt to this article http://www.cracked.com/article_18868...ern-world.html ( scroll down to Hannibal's army is devastated by a crane) Hannibal caused most of his losses himself.
However I'm willing to admit that the validity information has to be taken with a grain of salt considering where it comes from

Hmm the article is not that good^^ Crossing the alpes whas not a big deal and the passes where known since centuries. A lot of celt armies crossed them before. Its just not the normal rout frome spain to italy which would be on coast. The single problem was just the size of the army and the winter, but as i mentioned before, his brother had a lager army and crossed in the winter with loosing nearly no man.

[Krieglord]

I think the simple answer would be extremely high attrition

[Ussaid the Hashshashin]

hmmm,

maybe if you are crossing moutains in the middle of winter and are from the Shara Desert then you army will take casualties and you will have to play locals to guide you through the place and prevent any land sliding BUT the choice is yours causalities or money!

[DarthRuanek]

Attrition would make sense, and may be historically accurate. My worry, though, is that that area will eventually be part of the Roman heartland (or that of another state that rises to power). And it would be extremely annoying to have to suffer attrition or some other penalty every time you go through, if it's an area you may have to move armies through a lot.

So if this was implemented, it shouldn't hurt people who own territory nearby. Perhaps it could affect only people unused to such climate conditions (North African climates being the obvious example).

[username1903]

One thing i would really like to see is for armies to take longer to get through passes such as the alps. As we know from Hannibal it wasnt something easy. Maybe a few things could be implemented for this, for example higher upkeep in these areas, only certain units being able to get through easily (heavily armoured cavalry, elephants are unable and finally attrition, serious attrition.

What are your views on this ? Also what features could be used to make crossing these passes harder

Biggest problem with impementation is that the AI would suffer alot more than the player.

The AI would either have to be exempt or be smart enough not to keep chugging thru were the player could leave a stack at the other end and chomp up the heavily damaged enemy forces.

While I personally like this idea, so much would have to be added. Tooltips for different regions to notify the player that going that way is bad. Improved pathfinding. Improved AI. ect. I just dont see CA doing this.

[Ichon]

Perhaps certain regions would have attrition simply by passing through- IE it doesn't require ending a turn there. Then to offset such attrition buildings would need construction in those provinces so until one faction had firm control and a reason to build facilities(firm control on both sides) it would remain a natural barrier of a sort imposing some losses on anyone crossing. So crossing the Alps in summer losses would be very small, less than 5% while a winter crossing the losses could vary between 20-40% Desert crossing in the summer would be similar and perhaps some other natural barriers? Going through or near a storm or simply sailing late in the year.

[akkakk]

Perhaps certain regions would have attrition simply by passing through- IE it doesn't require ending a turn there. Then to offset such attrition buildings would need construction in those provinces so until one faction had firm control and a reason to build facilities(firm control on both sides) it would remain a natural barrier of a sort imposing some losses on anyone crossing. So crossing the Alps in summer losses would be very small, less than 5% while a winter crossing the losses could vary between 20-40% Desert crossing in the summer would be similar and perhaps some other natural barriers? Going through or near a storm or simply sailing late in the year.

that's completely forgetting that people who live near or in these 'natural obstacles' would know them like the back of their hand, and would not have any problems crossing them.

The Celts knew the Alps like it was their own home, and, even today, peoples such as the Bedouin can live in the desert nearly completely autonomously when allowed with barely any penalties.