The Gun Debate That Will Happen Whether You Like It Or Not

[PointOfViewGun]

July 2012

Batman cinema shooting: US mourning Aurora victims

The US has begun mourning after 12 people were killed and 59 wounded in a shooting at a midnight showing of the new Batman film, the Dark Knight Rises.

A 24 years old apparently a former PhD student at University of Colorado opened fire at people watching the new Batman movie out of the blue wearing full swat gear.

He was carrying one assault weapons, one shotgun and a handgun with him with an additional handgun in his car.

This event will certainly start a new gun debate now that the elections are approaching.

What is your thoughts on this particular incident and on gun laws in general?

December 2012

Oregon mall gunman identified as Jacob Tyler Roberts

Police have identified the gunman who killed two people and injured one during a shooting at a shopping mall near Portland, Oregon.

Jacob Tyler Roberts, 22, armed himself with an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle, which jammed during the shooting.

December 2012

'27 dead' in Connecticut primary school shooting

As many as 27 people have been killed, including many children, in a shooting attack at a primary school in the US state of Connecticut, US media say.

At least 18 children are among the dead at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, the Associated Press reported.

[The Unknown General]

Is it known why he did this?

[legate]

Lack of beer and female attention.

[Imperial]

Is it known why he did this?

For the fame.

[Caelius]

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Would this be an "explosives debate" if he'd tossed a huge bag of C4 in the theater instead?

[PointOfViewGun]

Would this be an "explosives debate" if he'd tossed a huge bag of C4 in the theater instead?

Yes.

[alexanderswift]

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

People kill people using guns. If he had a knife he wouldn't have done anywhere near the same amount of damage. Gun laws in the US definitely need to be tightened, hell they do in a lot of other places too. But denying that looser gun laws leads to more gun related crimes is just a silly argument.

As others have said, even if one in tens of thousands has the potential to do this that's more than should be given the ability. The fact he managed to get all of the equipment used in such a short span of time is ridiculous, the waiting time for rifles and long guns should be considerably longer and getting permits should be something that takes several years.

Attackers like this aren't the kind of people who can go out and buy illegal assault rifles, whether they buy them legally or steal them having less of these types of weapons in circulation will definitely prevent this from happening again.

Still, I doubt much will change. Civilian ownership of firearms is a pretty big part of US culture and most politicians don't seem too interested in changing that.

[Tickle My Fancy]

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

Would this be an "explosives debate" if he'd tossed a huge bag of C4 in the theater instead?

Guns may not kill people, but they sure as hell make it easy.

[Heinz Guderian]

Is it known why he did this?

Some men just want to see the world burn

[Boyar Son]

Is it known why he did this?

Controlled opposition. US gov't operative. FBI trainee. He was planted there to create a false flag to take our guns.

Seriousness aside, the constitution itself says the people may keep firearms. But, for the right to have guns, people will die. The possibility of being killed by a legally bought weapon is there. In my view there is no way to avoid a high number of gun related deaths in a country that lets its people buy them.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You can say 'hey car accidents and knives kill too' but that's missing my point.

[IlluminatiRex]

Controlled opposition. US gov't operative. FBI trainee. He was planted there to create a false flag to take our guns.

Seriousness aside, the constitution itself says the people may keep firearms. But, for the right to have guns, people will die. The possibility of being killed by a legally bought weapon is there. In my view there is no way to avoid a high number of gun related deaths in a country that lets its people buy them.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You can say 'hey car accidents and knives kill too' but that's missing my point.

Thank you, someone that understands that there is a price to these freedoms.

[Garbarsardar]

It turns out that a teacher and a camp supervisor talked a guy out of his gun. Talked? Is US turning to a society of pussies? If they were armed with a MAC-10 or something, none of this would have been necessary.

[Whukid]

It turns out that a teacher and a camp supervisor talked a guy out of his gun. Talked? Is US turning to a society of pussies? If they were armed with a MAC-10 or something, none of this would have been necessary.

You can talk anyone down from going through with something if they're not 100% into going through with it. If anything, this a success because no one died and hardly damning evidence for either side of the debate.

In Day Z (back when it was good) I talked a guy out of shooting me even though he had the drop on me.
















And then I circled around like half a click and shot him while he was looting a deer stand.

Talked a guy out of shooting me in Red Orchestra 2 on one of the winter maps. Had him convinced that one of the russian classes came with a German helmet that they picked up along the way.

[Fluttershy]

gun laws have very little to do with gun crime. Poverty and gangs on the other hand have a big effect on gun crimes.

for fun... Washington D.C vs New Hampshire (my state!)

one of these has the strictest gun laws in the country, one has some of the laxest gun laws. One of these has very low if not the lowest homicide rates in the country, the other has the highest.
can you match them up?

gun laws have very little effect on ggun crime because the people that are committing these crimes, usually arent obtaining weapons legally anyways

[EmperorBatman999]

gun laws have very little to do with gun crime. Poverty and gangs on the other hand have a big effect on gun crimes.

for fun... Washington D.C vs New Hampshire (my state!)

one of these has the strictest gun laws in the country, one has some of the laxest gun laws. One of these has very low if not the lowest homicide rates in the country, the other has the highest.
can you match them up?

gun laws have very little effect on ggun crime because the people that are committing these crimes, usually arent obtaining weapons legally anyways

This. I can't see how people can defend the anti-guns argument. There is no correlation between gun crime, and gun ownership.

All what banning guns does is mean that sane, law-abiding citizens can't get guns, but criminals still can. Guns aren't all bought in stores, and most criminals get their weapons through private deals that won't be stopped by these laws.

Also, even despite this shooting recently, cars still kill more people. Should we ban cars?

[magickyleo101]

I agree with most of your post, but I still don't think you understand how quickly an assault rifle is reloaded

Maybe for someone who know what he's doing. I don't think there's that much evidence that this kid ever even tried to reload (or had to); I don't know that he would have been terribly proficient at doing so in the dark.

This. I can't see how people can defend the anti-guns argument. There is no correlation between gun crime, and gun ownership.

All what banning guns does is mean that sane, law-abiding citizens can't get guns, but criminals still can. Guns aren't all bought in stores, and most criminals get their weapons through private deals that won't be stopped by these laws.

Also, even despite this shooting recently, cars still kill more people. Should we ban cars?

There's a difference between banning guns for the sake of keeping them out of a common thug's hands and banning 100 round drum clips to keep them out of "the joker's" hands. I don't see why anyone needs a 100 round drum clip, and I'm not really worried that if we ban them a local burglar will get one.

[HissingNewt]

Maybe for someone who know what he's doing. I don't think there's that much evidence that this kid ever even tried to reload (or had to); I don't know that he would have been terribly proficient at doing so in the dark.

I doubt it's that difficult. Someone who's used one before can correct me if I'm wrong, but it probably takes as long as ejecting the magazine, putting in a new one and racking the bolt (is that the right term?). There's no point in them making it difficult when similar rifles are going to be used by troops in combat, so they'll work to make it as easy as possible. Hell, my 80 year old Mosin-Nagant is easy to reload (well, if I could get the stripper clips to actually work for me), so a new rifle won't be difficult at all.

[EmperorBatman999]

Maybe for someone who know what he's doing. I don't think there's that much evidence that this kid ever even tried to reload (or had to); I don't know that he would have been terribly proficient at doing so in the dark.



There's a difference between banning guns for the sake of keeping them out of a common thug's hands and banning 100 round drum clips to keep them out of "the joker's" hands. I don't see why anyone needs a 100 round drum clip, and I'm not really worried that if we ban them a local burglar will get one.

That's fine, but keeping guns limited to a 10-round magazine that can only be reloaded with a special tool is too far.

But really the 100-round drums I would imagine are very heavy and probably a pain to reload each individual bullet. I rarely see them, except on LMG rigs for AR-15's, but those in themelves are unncesarry too.

I'm just trying to say this; let us still keep our semi-auto AR-15's with 20 or 30 roun magazines.

[Copperknickers II]

gun laws have very little to do with gun crime.

Sometimes, it is wise to think outside the box, and realise that just because the word 'gun' appears in two phrases, it doesn't necessarily mean that the two phrases have a causal relationship.

Bad luck though, because on this occasion, your post is not wise, but the opposite, to a truly profound extent. Gun crime and gun laws are two sides of the same coin, in the same way that drink driving and drink driving laws are, or illegal drugs and drug laws, or life and death. You can't have one without the other, it makes no sense at all.

gun laws have very little effect on ggun crime because the people that are committing these crimes, usually arent obtaining weapons legally anyways

The logic there wouldn't stand up to questioning from a small child: firstly, there are various categories of gun crime, of which the subject of this thread is one and ONE alone, a single assailant with no significant criminal history committing mass murder. It is not entirely off-topic to mention gang wars, armed petty crime and feuds in poor areas, however it is totally irrelevant to the main issue. Secondly, guns don't just materialise out of thin air in America, they can be traced either to US government licensed arms-manufacturers, or large organised crime syndicates. Almost all of the guns in the USA started off life as bona fide civilian or military weapons issued by government licensed manufacturers, the illegal ones are mostly due to corruption and illegal forward sale of weapons obtained legally.

Look at the UK: the guns in possession of the ghetto gangs are largely trafficked from places such as the Balkans, or occasionally bought from crooked police and arms manufacturers. They are linked heavily with drug cartels and other transnational mafias, for obvious reasons: drugs come from conflict zones, and so drug traffickers and dealers need to be protected, and also the smuggling channels used for drugs are suitable for firearms and other illegal items as well. In contrast, the guns in the possession of people who go on shooting sprees are totally different, they are without exception guns obtained legally, or through technically illegal means that could have been easily prevented by simple precautions such as mental health checks, strict controls on where guns are kept, how they are secured and how gun and ammo sales are regulated and monitored.

I apologise in advance for the slightly pugilistic tone which I will no doubt be reprimanded for, but I am tired of people using the same flawed arguments time after time without even attempting to think them through: you are probably an intelligent person, so, for the love of God, read some of the stats and debates again, and come back when you have some figures which contradict me.

[Vanoi]

apologise in advance for the slightly pugilistic tone which I will no doubt be reprimanded for, but I am tired of people using the same flawed arguments time after time without even attempting to think them through: you are probably an intelligent person, so, for the love of God, read some of the stats and debates again, and come back when you have some figures which contradict me.

Read some stats? I think you might have to because flutter is correct. There isn't any correlation between gun control laws and actual crime. And i can post some stats to prove it if needed.