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  1. #1

    Default Historical Armour Upgrades

    I would just like CA to remember which armour is more effective and which is less effective for romans, and not fall into the popular trap of thinking that the Lorica Segmentata offers better protection than the Lorica Hamata because it was developed later, or thinking that because it is plate it is better than mail, that is a medieval chronology, not an ancient one.

    Simplified overview:

    Early Roman Armour mimicked greek armour, as did the fighting style. After the Samnite wars, the Romans switched to the Manipular system, because it was more effective against hoplite style forces, that relied solely on othismos and morale. The Romans adopted mail, called Lorica Hamata, from the gauls, due to its defensive properties. Mail is extremely effective against sword cuts, though not as effective against thrusting attacks. The Romans perfected the technique of punching things from sheet metal (at least I recall that they perfected it, at the very least the Gauls didn't have it, and the romans employed it during mail-construction), where half of the rings of a coat of mail were punched from a single sheet of metal, and the other half were made from drawn and flattened wire, and then riveted together with the whole rings. Later, faced with challenges of supplying the vast amounts of roman soldiers with equipment, the romans developed the Lorica Segmentata, the overlapping metal plates everyone knows from the movies. The Segmentata was NOT more robust than the Hamata, it was less robust. It was made from sheet metal, fastened together by leather straps. The construction is less flexible than the Hamata, perhaps heavier, though I'm not certain of that, and does not offer as much protection as the Hamata. However, it was much faster, much cheaper, and much simpler to produce than the Hamata, and so the Roman Army adopted to a large degree (though it never entirely supplanted the Hamata) the Segmentata, but later, when in a more stable financial situation, the Hamata was once again adopted in favour of the Segmentata. The armour used by Barbarians, and later by medieval armies was still mail, as a preference. The ability and technology to produce plate armour that was superior to mail armour did not exist until the mid-14th century. Fish-scale Lorica Squamata is so rare in sources and archeological finds that they barely deserve a place in the game, and would most likely also be inferior in quality to the Hamata.

    With this short history lesson concluded, I hope I won't have to see people asking to have their armour upgraded from mail to plate over the course of the game.
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  2. #2

    Default

    There is a big thread already in progress going hammer and tongs on this exact topic. Brace yourself for the rebuttal!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    I wrote a reply to you on another thread, but the filter didn't allow it.


    Lorica Squamata: Roman Scale armour. the de facto armour for auxiliary units of the Roman army. Same coverage, roughly the same weight and superior defence when compared to the Hamata. Adopted for legionary use after the Segmentata left service ~250AD due to shortages in high quality iron. Superior to the Hamata but inferior to the Segmentata.

    Lorica Hamata: Basic roman armour. Issued to raw legions as the basic armour. also issued to legions whose main role was to sit in the calm, inactive areas of the empire keeping the peace. Inferior defensive capabilities when compared to both the Squamata and Segmentata.

    Lorica Segmentata: Faster to make, and roughly the same price as the above two. Similar weight and only takes a couple of seconds longer to put on and has the same coverage (torso, upper arms and upper legs). Made of high quality metal (compared to the above two) and fully articulated using rivets and leather straps. Superior melee and ranged defence. Dissipates impacts over the entire torso instead of localized damage (allowed by the flexible Hamata and Squamata) which could mean debilitating (and possibly lethal) effects such as broken ribs, breathlessness (winding) etc.

    Downsides: Does take a couple of seconds to put on (total effect: negligible). Requires master smiths to complete the articulation. Chafing of the torso required the use of a padded tunic (total effect: negligible). Required high quality metal which can be subject to shortages (total effect: Major).

    That last effect is what meant its abandonment in the beginning of the decline of the Roman empire. Lack of monetary reform, good leadership and general religious and political strife strained the empire leading to shortages in good metal and materials, meaning armour such as the Manica/Lorica Segmentata etc were abandoned for the alternatives.
    Last edited by MasterBigAb; July 20, 2012 at 09:42 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by akkakk View Post
    Lorica Hamata: Basic roman armour. Issued to raw legions as the basic armour. also issued to legions whose main role was to sit in the calm, inactive areas of the empire keeping the peace. Inferior defensive capabilities when compared to both the Squamata and Segmentata.
    Source for the bolded part please. Because that's not at all what I've heard about it.


    Downsides: Does take a couple of seconds to put on (total effect: negligible). Requires master smiths to complete the articulation. Chafing of the torso required the use of a padded tunic (total effect: negligible). Required high quality metal which can be subject to shortages (total effect: Major).
    Major downside: complicated maintenance. Also, why would a segmented armour require "master smiths", as (implied by you) opposed to scale armour or mail? It's not customized plate armour, after all.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Source for the bolded part please. Because that's not at all what I've heard about it.
    Simple knowledge of armour mechanics.

    If i hit you with a sword in the chest and you're wearing flexible armour (like the Hamata) not only do i have a fairly high chance of heavily damaging the armour by braking the chain links, i could also break several ribs, rendering you incapacitated and at my mercy (something the Barbarians famously lacked).

    If you wore the Segmentata, and i did the same thing, you'd maybe stumble back but you'd be unharmed and your armour would be fine.

    Arrows can easily penetrate chain armour. Not so for plate. Basic armour mechanics.

    Watch re-enactments, in fact take part, and learn something about how the armour is constructed before you make mistakes.


    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Major downside: complicated maintenance.
    And Chain armour is low maintenance? having to drop it by the smiths to get the links re-attached to each other or have new patches of chain 'sewn' on where gaps have appeared after a battering?

    the entire chain shirt would need to be checked over and repaired as chain armour has always been prone to high damage in battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Also, why would a segmented armour require "master smiths", as (implied by you) opposed to scale armour or mail? It's not customized plate armour, after all.
    Again, this comes from my research into how the Lorica Segmentata was made.

    Journeyman or apprentice smiths would make the various parts, and master smiths would put the armour together as the articulation of the LS was very complex as it used something that would not be used again until the 1200's (and the advent of Medieval plate armour):

    Sliding rivets.

    The LS shoulder guards, the Manica (sword arm covering armour) and the hinges and on the LS all used sliding rivet based articulation. The leather straps were just used to hold it on the soldier.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by akkakk View Post
    Simple knowledge of armour mechanics.

    If i hit you with a sword in the chest and you're wearing flexible armour (like the Hamata) not only do i have a fairly high chance of heavily damaging the armour by braking the chain links, i could also break several ribs, rendering you incapacitated and at my mercy (something the Barbarians famously lacked).

    If you wore the Segmentata, and i did the same thing, you'd maybe stumble back but you'd be unharmed and your armour would be fine.

    Arrows can easily penetrate chain armour. Not so for plate. Basic armour mechanics.

    Watch re-enactments, in fact take part, and learn something about how the armour is constructed before you make mistakes.



    And Chain armour is low maintenance? having to drop it by the smiths to get the links re-attached to each other or have new patches of chain 'sewn' on where gaps have appeared after a battering?

    the entire chain shirt would need to be checked over and repaired as chain armour has always been prone to high damage in battle.

    the LS would only need a quick scrubbing and polish. the Articulated parts might be a bit more fiddly but its not like the Legionaries had too little time.



    Again, this comes from my research into how the Lorica Segmentata was made.

    Journeyman or apprentice smiths would make the various parts, and master smiths would put the armour together as the articulation of the LS was very complex as it used something that would not be used again until the 1200's (and the advent of Medieval plate armour):

    Sliding rivets.

    The LS shoulder guards, the Manica (sword arm covering armour) and the hinges and on the LS all used sliding rivet based articulation. The leather straps were just used to hold it on the soldier.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    btw, Hamata was much heavier than Segmentata (approximately 2x more)... Plus, as in Medieval times, chainmail was much more restrictive than plate, and much costly to make.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by JaM View Post
    btw, Hamata was much heavier than Segmentata (approximately 2x more)... Plus, as in Medieval times, chainmail was much more restrictive than plate, and much costly to make.
    that makes sense...

    Lorica Hamata was more than 1 layer of chain after all. roughly 2-3 layers, which gets heavy.

  9. #9
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by akkakk View Post
    that makes sense...

    Lorica Hamata was more than 1 layer of chain after all. roughly 2-3 layers, which gets heavy.
    Lorica hamata had only one layer of rings. If they could afford more for each shirt, they'd probably first use it to extend it down limbs before adding more torso protection.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    Lorica hamata had only one layer of rings. If they could afford more for each shirt, they'd probably first use it to extend it down limbs before adding more torso protection.
    I though the legionaries had a smaller chain 'overcoat' that covered their shoulders (giving an extra layer on the shoulder areas) and the upper half of the torso (giving another layer there)?

  11. #11
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Plate was easier to mass produce, because you didn't have to expend a whole ing week to build just the rings and the nail them all together. Arguably it could offer you a better protection against stabs and arrows, and definitively is better for things like hammers (which a mail do nothing to stop) and to a lesser degree axes, but that's about it. The mail was excellent to stop slicing wounds that would be the most frequent ones anyway with relative lower weight (if single layered) and more flexibility. I would not say one is better that the other, they complement.
    Last edited by Lord Baal; July 20, 2012 at 11:34 AM.
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  12. #12
    Sharpe's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Im just praying the Celtic nations have decent representations of armour, rather than shirtless unwashed savages.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Basic laws of physics and chemisty pretty much dictate that a grandpa of platemail must offer stronger defense than a chainmail. It should be noted that the chainmail used by romans wasn't the heavy chainmail used in middle ages. Also, it should be noted that romans didn't switch to chainmail because it was better (it was clearly worser), but because they had no recources/time/masters to produce the segmentata in numbers that were needed.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Again I just hope that they have VISIBLE armor upgrades at all, remember how they couldn't make that happen for Shogun 2 even though people wanted it? I do.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by emperor77 View Post
    Again I just hope that they have VISIBLE armor upgrades at all, remember how they couldn't make that happen for Shogun 2 even though people wanted it? I do.
    That's because japanese armor shown in the game (in the time period of XVII c. the game is set in) did not go through the serious transformation of chainmail->partial plate->plate it did in M2TW.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by emperor77 View Post
    Again I just hope that they have VISIBLE armor upgrades at all, remember how they couldn't make that happen for Shogun 2 even though people wanted it? I do.

    If the team working on Third Age Total War mod for M2TW can do this, i'm sure CA can.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by Areo_Hotah View Post
    If the team working on Third Age Total War mod for M2TW can do this, i'm sure CA can.
    I'm no modding expert but it sounds like for TATW it would have been easy because the Mechanic was already in the game. With Shogun 2 it sounds like the mechanic wasn't there at all and would have to be done by scratch.

    Still not really an excuse for CA to not implement it though.

  18. #18
    hochmeister devin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    From my understanding japan didnt go have massivly different armor, so the most they could do is make armor upgrades add things like shoulder guards to unit lacking them, etc. thats all you can expect really, and that would be more trouble then its worth since theres what 70 odd units and having to make 4 variant models for each is time consuming. That would equate to 218 variantmodels.
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  19. #19
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    They don't make separate models anymore my friend. The modeling is modular since Medieval 2.
    PROUD TO BE A PESANT. And for the dimwitted, I know how to spell peasant. <== This blue things are links, you click them and magical things (like not ending up like a fool) happens.
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  20. #20
    hochmeister devin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Historical Armour Upgrades

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Baal View Post
    They don't make separate models anymore my friend. The modeling is modular since Medieval 2.

    I know that, its pretty hard to not when you make 50 units for your mod lol. Also notice i said variantmodels not models. Anyways make variantmodels is still time consumming for me atleast it took 24 hours to do 50 and 218 is alot more then that. Also theyd have to have some historical basis for what the upgraded armor looks like, for example you cant just give the ashigau fancy laced samurai shoudler armor.
    My mods
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    -Mod Leader for Shogun 2: Foreign Invasion if you want a mod with alot of units this is for you, not only is there the 40 units CA made theres planned to be atleast 177 NEW units when its done.
    -Modder in the World War I and Shogun II project. The only full scale mod for FOTS and it plays nothing like FOTS. FOTS may have Gatling guns, WW1&S2 has tekidanto samurai, SNLF, MGs, kisho snipers, assault infantry(shotguns) just to name a few.

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