Faction - Zora Dominion

[nintendo64isking]

yes i am certain, the lanayru have coral archers as well as coralmold balistas, and their armour looks more coral-based, the zora dominion could incorporate dissatisfied lanayru zora into their ranks perhaps....

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

@nintendo64isking

However, in Neph's studies he shows Zora harvesters.



"Coralmold is to us as gold and rupees are to you, Hylian. Our culture revolves around this miracle creature." - Zaleen

http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&se...halim#/d20ubwy

[Duke Serkol]

Ah, Avatar of the Nice Wolf to the rescue!

[nintendo64isking]

ah so all zoras use coral then fair enough

[UndyingNephalim]

I'm pretty sure it's possible to fight Iron Knuckles with it... but yeah, they don't have to be effective against everybody. They could well be crap against heavily armored units.

I'm talking in a sense of realism: anyone who tried to drop kick a suit or armor would break bones in their feet and land on their back after a shameful display of Final Fantasy styled non-sense. A lot of oriental martial arts is very romanticized in modern culture and is only practical in a one on one dual. Again, there's a reason that throughout the centuries of warfare in human history we've not had a medieval army trained in the ways of Shaolin Monks: a super simple suit of iron French armor was enough to break any bone trying to punch it.

Zoras will not be doing crazy martial arts, no one in this game will.

ah so all zoras use coral then fair enough

Coral and Coralmold are a bit different. The rubbery outfits that the Zora of the Dominion wear is Coralmold, which Lanayru actually avoids because it's really uncomfortable.

[GoldenGohma]

A lot of oriental martial arts is very romanticized in modern culture and is only practical in a one on one dual.

... I will mention one Martial Arts which is very effective against groups-or rather, has many of it's techniques based around dealing with groups. Aikido. Testing very quickly turns into avoiding three attackers using training swords while using only your hands. And you can't get trapped, can't stop.

However, I don't want to ARGUE against anything. It's difficult to get a large body of students to the martial skill necessary to make use of the techniques in the first place. What makes a martial arts technique come together is many little details all working together, alongside a keen knowledge of when and where to use which technique on impulse without hesitation while at the same time keeping the attackers momentum while ensuring that the user is in such a position where they cannot be struck mid-attack and still control their target to direct them wherever they are needed-such as throwing a thug at his friends to slow them down, or perhaps toss him out the big glass skyscraper wall. Either works. But you won't get anything militarily sound out of it without a lot of training, training that is best done in small groups.

Of course when you DO get it right that feeling of satisfaction is brilliant. And then people ask you where you learned kung-fu.

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

Well, I guess I will make my case for a Zora Epee unit then. I will go over the criteria I use personally to decide if a new unit is worth looking into.

Q: Does this unit fit the faction?

A: From what I can tell, yes. An Epee is a flashier but heavier version of the foil. It has a graceful form, may work well aquatically, and may not be as practical as the lighter versions (form over function). This unit could coincide with lore as well. Against the Gorons, a weapon capable of piercing their stone-like skin would be required. If an Epee would be ineffective then I would bring into question the effectiveness standard infantry as well. For its craft, it has been suggested that coralmold be used. I am in agreement. It would help establish the vital role of coralmold all the more.

Q: Does this unit fill a needed role? (Is this unit necessary?)

A: Necessary? Unfortunately, yes. In their current state, the mainline Zora Infantry are highly ineffective against the infantry of any other nations. Their status of spearmen means that they can get torn apart, even by swordsmen units of lesser stats. As such, quick, early armies are a large problem. Without shock troopers, even Goron Guardians or Kokiri Detatchments/Minutemen pose a notable threat. Their speed allows them to outmaneuver any lines you try to set up, meaning that your mages will probably be locked in melee if the Goron or Kokiri is a decent commander, and the infantry (spearmen) cannot hold. Therefore, a light swordsman unit will help balance the Zora on the worldstage, especially in the early stages of the game.

Q: Does this unit comply with the faction's overall feel?

A: I certainly believe so. The Zora fight defensively with a large emphasis on mages dealing massive damage while iron-willed foot soldiers hold the line against superior melee forces. This faction will better help "hold the line" against infantry without making the Zora more melee-heavy. This unit will help supplement the existing forces without shifting the paradigm. In fact, if I may be so bold, I believe such a unit will help enhance the intended feel.

Please take this into consideration Nephalim. Just a suggestion that I believe will help the Zora.

[Agent 51]

How about guys using some sort of sword, along with a shield made out of a Shell blade?

[Duke Serkol]

I'm talking in a sense of realism: anyone who tried to drop kick a suit or armor would break bones in their feet

Yes. Hence this:

they don't have to be effective against everybody. They could well be crap against heavily armored units.

Mh, yeah I do see your point.
Maybe a combination of Xebenkeck's earlier ideas of martial arts and coral daggers ?

You seem to equate martial arts to unarmed combat. It doesn't have to be the case. Both a dagger and twin hooks could be used by martial artists with extraordinary proficency.

How about guys using some sort of sword, along with a shield made out of a Shell blade?

We're trying to avoid regular swords and shields to preserve the Zora's uniqueness.

I still think the three best options are:
coral dagger,
spear hand,
twin hooks.

[Nergali]

If I may suggest, martial arts could work if we based them on the fighting style used by "Zora Link" in Majora's Mask. In that game Link used the arm fins almost akin to a pair of, for lack of a better term, arm blades (that also functioned like boomerangs, but that doesn't have to be implemented). While this might require some sort of sub-breed (genetically selected and treated like a caste that cannot breed outside itself?) due to the fins differing from the mainline zora, or possible an organic attachment such as coralmolds, it would make for a melee unit that could fight on par with the light infantry of other factions.

Also, given that zora can generate electricity, they could focus it through their fins as a way to explain how they are on par with the metal weapons of their enemy counterparts.

[Eldren]

you can use a coralmold finblade to block like a buckler in melee.
and the word Martial arts also applies to fencing and other armed fighting styles.

generate electricity and sending it though the coralmold weapon is appealing. watching soldiers fry in melee is a site i want to see. but that is a bit over powered, for a basic light infantry.

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

@Eldren (Carried over from the Stalfos Thread)

Here are ways each individual unit can be used:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Healer - Morale unit. Keep a couple in the back lines chanting and maybe have them act as an auxiliary melee if all else fails. Not really all that much strategy to these guys.

Infantry - These are your only Spearmen unit. Use them as such. Cavalry should be a priority for at least a couple of these guys. However, Zora use their Spearmen as their mainline infantry as well (note Epee unit above for why I want that changed). This means that they are your general damage-soakers and meatshields that have an innate penalty against other infantry. Their high morale allows them to hold the line, especially with healers supporting, but against anything other than Cavalry they are not going to dish out that much damage. Your best bet is to use these guys as distractions for your mages.

Mages - When the enemy is approaching, Mages can be placed in front of the Infantry to deliver early volleys. As the enemy draws nearer, pull the mages back and have the melee engaged. Find a gap in the lines or move the mages to the flanks so that they may fire without shooting themselves. In siege battles, position mages on both sides of the breach, facing diagonal (mages on the left facing northeast, mages on the right facing northwest). This should create a crossfire. In smaller fortified settlements, narrow, straight roads are perfect for mages to shoot from. Bonus points if the mages can do it from far away like in a wooden castle. Enemies flooding into the breach will have to deal with a lot of firepower. The whole goal with mages is to shoot from the sides or into gaps in the lines while the main enemy body is tied up in melee. Just make sure the mages are not directly facing each other when they shoot, or you will end up killing yourself.

Shock Troopers - Here is the Zora heavy infantry. Note, they are not comparable to enemy heavy infantry even though they are expensive. Nevertheless, these guys hold the lines far better than the basic infantry do, both by virtue of being actual infantry-class units and by having higher stats. They also have the capacity of dealing damage on their own, but still should have mage support. Effective use of mages is critical to any Zora strategy.

Infiltrators - High speeds make this a good unit for chasing down fleeing enemies or for scouting. The fact that they can hide also gives them ambush opportunities. They can fight spearmen in melee, but their low numbers means you have to be very careful with them.

Sapphire Wardens - Though not as accurate as mages, and not as capable of racking up high kill counts, the Sapphire Warden shines during defensive siege battles. These advanced mages deal massive damage against siege equipment and have a very far range of fire. From castle walls, they are highly effective, whereas mages cannot even fire from such hights. Sapphire Wardens can end siege battles before they even begin in earnest by taking out the enemy rams or siege ladders. Limiting enemy ways into your fortification is always a good move. However, as the mages are effective in smalle settlements like motte and bailies or woden castles, conversely the Sapphire Wardens lose their effectiveness in settlements without walls to fire from.

Mage Cannons - Extreme Damage, great accuracy for a siege weapon, low ammo. Use these things wisely. They can tear holes in entire enemy formations and take out even the Ruby Guards with one well-placed volley. They are deadly efficient, but have a very limited amount of shots. They also take a while to load up and are unsteady on certain terrain types. Still, this is a great weapon. Don't underestimate it.

Mage Spires - The opposite of Mage Cannons in terms of use. While Mage Cannons are excellent offensive siege weapons, Mage Spires are excellent defensive emplacements. Though immobile, when placed properly they can fire lightning bolts akin to that of the Mage Cannon at the approaching army. Placing this thing near the gates the enemy will be sieging all but guarentees a slaughter when enemies try to pass through.

Octo Riders - Basic cavalry. Large, bulky, not as powerful as cavalry of other races and definitely not as maneuverable. Still, cavalry is cavalry. They can still tear large holes in enemy infantry and archers so long as the spearment don't get in the way. They are more durable than other cavalry, but far from invincible. Use them when the enemy is already engaged or against missile troops.

Big Octo Battle Platforms - Big, Bad, and equipped with Sapphire Wardens on top, these juggernauts have a lot of durability, a charge that kills just about anything, and efficient ranged units on top. The only thing you have to fear is them running amok, which is very detrimental to your war effort. Keep them away from things that are on fire or from panicking friendly soldiers and you should have a great unit. About their cost.... hyper expensive.

[Eldren]

@ Avatar of the Ice Wolf
thanks for the advise:

[Cryus]

Hi all,

I've just some weeks ago downloaded this mod and after playing a few times through the campaign I thought to give my feedback.

First of all let it be said that this mod is awesome, really damn good work from you UndyingNephalim its honestly amazing. Keep it up.

Ok, with that being said, I wanted to comment upon the topic of the missing zora swordsman/infantry basic unit.

Honestly I completely agree that:

1.- The Zora are in need of a basic infantry unit to complement the spear men.

Really the Shock troopers, albeit being pretty decent are just too costly and take much too long to be built to be used as a standard all out infantry unit. Also they are available pretty late... maybe post turn 30 in the campaign at least.

The Zora do not have any typical 2-turns-to-train unit and this really leaves some sort of a hole in their army makeup. Really after Hyrule starts going out with hyrulean infantry (the one after the recruits) you can't hold your line with the spear men. Also, the Zora do not really have the "largest" of army lists, so it wouldn't hurt to add one more.


2.- The ninja like style does not really fit:

Although I personally liked the style of Zora-Link in MM, it does not really fit the style that UndyingNephalim has given to the Zora here. They have more like an ancient elvish-mayan style, with this golden, stylized but somehow cumbersome stuff they carry around as weapons and armor.

In my modest opinion, much more fitting would be some kind of actual -swordsmen- just carrying an atypical sword. In my opinion, and to conserve the "unique" style of the Zora somehow, it must be something in the line of a spear-sword hybrid, much like the elvish swords in LotR:

>>> those:

Just picture this kind of weapon (long hilt, medium sized blade length) but made in that goldish, somehow unpractical Zora style, just like the spear has. I think it would fit rather good.

Additionally as the hilt of the weapon is thought to be two-hand wielded, even if the unit does not carry shields it will not look like something is "missing", and as no Zora units actually carry shields, that quite fits good too. Also, if you think about the utility of such a blade, it allows for quite powerful hits (due to two-hand wielding + long hilt) but without adding the additional weight and slow-down of a real broadsword.

If we think that the Gorons are the natural enemies of the Zora --> Gorons are Slow, Hard hitting, Resilient. You would want a weapon that allows --> speed/agility to dodge, powerful striking to pierce through their hard skins/armors. That applies quite well to this kind of sword.

Well this is just my idea.

BTW. after playing through the campaign for four times by now with the Zora... I have been treasoned by Ruto OR King Farkos three of the four times prior to turn 20.

Although I quite like the possibility of bribing with enemy generals and stuff... it rather feels to me that it is not very feasible that the faction leader... or the direct heir of the faction does actually treason that faction... at least not that easily. Maybe it wouldn't hurt to give them a bit more loyalty to prevent this from happening so often.

Ok that would be it for now. Just wanted to tell my opinion about the stuff discussed here. Sry if some of this has already been said or anything else... I do not really have the patience to read through all the forum posts.

Keep up the good work UndyingNephalim, this mod is amazing.

[Duke Serkol]

That fin like blade is in fact perfect for the Zoras, great idea!

[Cryus]

Nice you like it... After playing the Zora in the campaign... especially with my -destructive- relationship with the guys of the Hyrule Kingdom and the Kokiri, I really felt the Zora where in the need of an infantry style unit to really be able to match their forces head to head in battle so I spent a while thinking about how that unit should actually -be- and came out with this. Later as I saw this thread I couldn't but reply to it.

Hope such a unit makes it into the finished game =).

[HerofTime]

I agree with this, also it should get "effective against armor". Only thing is, only if more units gain that ability after unit balance (something Neph said he was probbaly doing after everything else is out). If only this unit had it, I'd would tear apart several factions. I think after unit balance, the Zora will be a bit more hardy overall and may not need AP, but we'll see I guess. Great idea though .

[Cryus]

Even if I've not been posting alot I've been following this mods development with great excitement.

Looks like we may be getting that swordsmen unit in the end for the release =D as Undying just said a few days ago that maybe a few new units would be added for this release. YAY!

Looking forwards to it =D =D =D.

[omnimercurial]

Just lost my whole damn post. Ragghhh!

Love the Mod. Love the Units and Styles.

CANNOT get my head around THE SHEER BLUENESS!!!

I love your Zora Ideas but why are there no Pale White Zora as seen in OoT and MM?

Sure Ruto had a darker Pigmentation of Scale/Skin than the average Zora but not as Vividly Dark Blue as seen here.

I'm not trying to be mean here as I think the Project/Mod is wonderful but OoT and MM were my favourite Zelda Games so for me they provide the base form/template of a Zora.

Please enlighten me ast to why this is as it is.

If there are Traditional Pale White alongside Grey or Blue then I can deal with it a lot easier as variation but so far it ALL seems BLUE.

Ruto Too! BLUE!

P.S. I think.Arm Blades fit well so even if not adopted en mass a Specialised Melee Squad at least maybe?

Will the Indigo Go Go's make an appearance? Either as a Band/Performers or as Cameo Hero Units?

What about Giant Eels as seen in MM?

[Gebilde]

Just lost my whole damn post. Ragghhh!

Love the Mod. Love the Units and Styles.

CANNOT get my head around THE SHEER BLUENESS!!!

I love your Zora Ideas but why are there no Pale White Zora as seen in OoT and MM?

Sure Ruto had a darker Pigmentation of Scale/Skin than the average Zora but not as Vividly Dark Blue as seen here.

I'm not trying to be mean here as I think the Project/Mod is wonderful but OoT and MM were my favourite Zelda Games so for me they provide the base form/template of a Zora.

Please enlighten me ast to why this is as it is.

If there are Traditional Pale White alongside Grey or Blue then I can deal with it a lot easier as variation but so far it ALL seems BLUE.

Ruto Too! BLUE!

P.S. I think.Arm Blades fit well so even if not adopted en mass a Specialised Melee Squad at least maybe?

Will the Indigo Go Go's make an appearance? Either as a Band/Performers or as Cameo Hero Units?

What about Giant Eels as seen in MM?

Take a loke at these factions
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ion-River-Zora
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...nayru-Province