Evolving Hellenistic Armies

**canadian** · July 12, 2012, 09:48 PM

Hey, Im playing as Pergamon right now and was wondering kind of if its worth using thorkarti (definitely spelt that wrong) as independent units or if they're really meant to just be flank protectors.

Beyond that was wondering how you guys structure your Hellenistic armies after you move from hoplite and phalanx units to the more roman influenced ones?

**al Rashid** · July 12, 2012, 10:57 PM

Thorakitai are very good general purpose infantry, similar in effectiveness to Roman legionaries. I would use them as a flanking force while your phalanx holds the enemy in place. For the role of flank protectors I'd suggest the use of hypapistai, as the the thorakitai will have more time to throw their javelins if the enemy is not directly focused on charging them.

You can of course switch to an all-machairaphoroi/thorakitai army (the testudo formation is very helpful for sieges), but I think supplementing your "legions" with phalangites is optimal for tactical diversity and adds a traditional Greek feel to playing with Pergamon, the Seleucid Empire, etc..

**Timefool** · July 12, 2012, 11:58 PM

My primary Gallic assault army is 1 general, 2 elite hoplites, 2 elite cavalry, and 15 thorakitai. They are a well rounded unit and can definitely hold their own in a melee. The only downside is that they require level 3 barracks to build so you need army rations and weapons metal import to retrain them.

**Drowsy** · July 13, 2012, 08:59 AM

Strangely i find myself using imitation legions until i actually run into Roma on the campaign map, then i switch to classical 'greek' army composition with some known mixed flavors offered by the roster of the faction.

While lining up your phalanx with that of the enemy is pretty cool, but those flexible checkerboard legions simply make short work of the AI phalanx.

Hammer and anvil tactics aside etc..

**Hamilicar** · July 13, 2012, 05:13 PM

I play as Sparta and I dont use the Imitation legionaries or the phalanx. I go for the old school Hoplites. They seem to do well against all kinds of forces when properly commanded and even the imperial Romans are having lots of trouble with them.

**Grimbold** · July 13, 2012, 05:32 PM

The usual setup, phalanx units making up most of my infantry and heavy hoplites or macharaphoi or whatever for flank duty. I don't use thorakitai because they don't line up properly.

**naq** · July 13, 2012, 09:22 PM

For historical favour, my Hellenistic army model must have phalangites as the core of the army. The rest go to flanks.

**Sertorio** · July 14, 2012, 09:21 AM

Playing full thorakitai or machairapheroi army may prove troublesome when dealing with Roman legions. After all is their game. Some finishing blows from cavalry might be required.

**FeralBlueBird** · July 14, 2012, 09:13 PM

As Sertorio mentions, I once went with an army of machairapheroi and thorakitai against Rome and got utterly destroyed. I was Sparta.

Hamilcar also points out the effectiveness of Spartan hoplites, a thing I realized late in my campaign. I think you can make solid armies of hoplites supported by thorakitai without much trouble, and completely exclude the slow-moving, formation-botching phalanx troops.

**Sertorio** · July 14, 2012, 11:48 PM

Never ever tried that but i am curious enough to try and see the results. One can do a full Promachoi line but that might be a little OP and dificult to mantain because they can only be retrained in Sparta.
However when dealing with Rome i usualy relly on better cavalry, never on a face to face infantry showdown.

**Grimbold** · July 17, 2012, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by FeralBlueBird

As Sertorio mentions, I once went with an army of machairapheroi and thorakitai against Rome and got utterly destroyed. I was Sparta.

Hamilcar also points out the effectiveness of Spartan hoplites, a thing I realized late in my campaign. I think you can make solid armies of hoplites supported by thorakitai without much trouble, and completely exclude the slow-moving, formation-botching phalanx troops.

That type of army, in reality, would be dare i say easily defeated by a macedonian phalanx type due to the reach.
In the end, you'd be playing as if you were with one of those, because the hoplite line would do nothing except holding the line, while the rest of your army does the rest of the work.

As for the imitation legions armies, they are good when the enemy isn't a heavier type of infantry type. Imperial legions would wipe out such foe.

**FeralBlueBird** · July 17, 2012, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Grimbold

That type of army, in reality, would be dare i say easily defeated by a macedonian phalanx type due to the reach.
In the end, you'd be playing as if you were with one of those, because the hoplite line would do nothing except holding the line, while the rest of your army does the rest of the work.

As for the imitation legions armies, they are good when the enemy isn't a heavier type of infantry type. Imperial legions would wipe out such foe.

Certainly so, in reality. However phalanx troops in RS II don't always behave in a reliable fashion, regardless of guard mode. They tend to break formation and spread thinly, in my experience.

I'm currently campaigning as Pergamon and when facing phalanx armies I try to fight in a more dynamic way, instead of the whole 2 line, infantry and cav flank fashion. It's been going well

**Sertorio** · July 17, 2012, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by FeralBlueBird

Certainly so, in reality. However phalanx troops in RS II don't always behave in a reliable fashion, regardless of guard mode. They tend to break formation and spread thinly, in my experience.

I'm currently campaigning as Pergamon and when facing phalanx armies I try to fight in a more dynamic way, instead of the whole 2 line, infantry and cav flank fashion. It's been going well

At the end of each battle i have my general personaly kick the behind of any lochagos that allows his lochos to break ranks against levy phalangites...
When fighting against a phalanx with a non-phalangite army i usualy abuse the poor AI that usualy sends the flanks first, then individual units of phalangites that can be engaged from all sides.
Normal it becames a very dinamyc battle with small engagements happening everywhere.

**Grimbold** · July 17, 2012, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by FeralBlueBird

Certainly so, in reality. However phalanx troops in RS II don't always behave in a reliable fashion, regardless of guard mode. They tend to break formation and spread thinly, in my experience.

I'm currently campaigning as Pergamon and when facing phalanx armies I try to fight in a more dynamic way, instead of the whole 2 line, infantry and cav flank fashion. It's been going well

The problem is classical hoplite units are also messed up, because they don't line up properly.

**Ultra123** · July 15, 2012, 05:20 AM

i play as sparta and use soley 4 phalanx units as the core of my army with 2 roman style units 4 spartan hoplites 2 archers 2 generals and probably jav horses. nothing can stop alexanders phalanx and super human hoplites from sparta joined with that is unbeatable.

**canadian** · July 15, 2012, 02:19 PM

Alright so I'm thinking that a balanced mix between roman like units, hoplites and pikemen is the best option so far. Cool

Throwing another question out their, are the Throkrati Hoplite Eplioktoi(spelt that wrong for sure) able to act independently or are they meant for chasing down units due to their lighter armor?

**Ultra123** · July 16, 2012, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by canadian

Alright so I'm thinking that a balanced mix between roman like units, hoplites and pikemen is the best option so far. Cool

Throwing another question out their, are the Throkrati Hoplite Eplioktoi(spelt that wrong for sure) able to act independently or are they meant for chasing down units due to their lighter armor?

they can hold the line against non-phalanx units, but expect some casualtys if left for very long on their own. i use them personally to plug gaps in the phalanx wall, sometimes it breaks up if fighting a large enemy phalanx

**Antiokhos Euergetes** · July 16, 2012, 12:58 AM

I always use as historical a Hellenistic army as possible; phalanx at core; Hypaspistai on right flank; Gallic,Thracians, Thorakitai, Jewish, Arabs, Persian..etc; on th left, and cavalry to deliver the hammer blow! Not forgetting elephants, used in reserve as guard against enemy cavalry on flanks--not amongst the phalanx, that's just asking for trouble!
Last but not least skirmisers out front.

**Hamilicar** · July 16, 2012, 11:20 AM

When I make my hoplite army it consists of about 12 Spartan hoplites, 1 general and the rest is a mix of archers and cav. It may be unhistorical and a bit overpowered however any lesser unit doesn't do the job against the late roman units.

Never ever tried that but i am curious enough to try and see the results. One can do a full Promachoi line but that might be a little OP and dificult to mantain because they can only be retrained in Sparta.
However when dealing with Rome i usualy relly on better cavalry, never on a face to face infantry showdown.

Even in my "Royal Army" (I do like doing some Role playing and I also like to keep armies together) I dont use an army full of Promanchoi.... That is very overpowered and I use them as a Romanish type checkerboard formation or in a two line formation... always with the archers out in front with the cav. behind the lines of infantry.