THP's Unit Balance thread

[Warrior536]

The reason is that the model for the Zora Mage Spire causes a bug where melee units can't seems to find a path to get in range to attack them. This is a problem with quite a few large units. Some spear units seems to be able to hit them though and ranged units slaughter them.

[Apani]

THP, are you still working on this?

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Aye, I shall be starting up again on this soon.

Since my laptop busted, it requires starting over, but with a little elbow-grease, it shouldn't take too long to catch up to where I was.

Believe me, though. I made a lot more progress than the first post would indicate, haha

[Apani]

I've been working on a personal rebalancement project as well, following the Real Combat system. So far I have been working on Kokiri, Labrynna, Lanayru, Lizalfos, Ordona and Zola. Do you think I could be useful to you?

[Jakeford]

Hey Pilgrim. Kind of like Apani I have my own submod. While I mostly finished it I am working on converting it to version 3.5 once I am finished you could take a look at it and use it for help. It not only balances unit stats but also the time it takes to train troops in the campaign, other buildings, and mounts. (the mass of mounts that is)

[The Holy Pilgrim]

I've been working on a personal rebalancement project as well, following the Real Combat system. So far I have been working on Kokiri, Labrynna, Lanayru, Lizalfos, Ordona and Zola. Do you think I could be useful to you?

Hey Pilgrim. Kind of like Apani I have my own submod. While I mostly finished it I am working on converting it to version 3.5 once I am finished you could take a look at it and use it for help. It not only balances unit stats but also the time it takes to train troops in the campaign, other buildings, and mounts. (the mass of mounts that is)

Any help that I could get would be great. While any one of us could go about looking at the balance of each and every faction, it's always better to have second opinions on the systems being put to use.

The first issue, though, is deciding how we want this game to feel. Do we make it feel more realistic? Do we make it feel more like vanilla? Should we emphasize longer battles or speedier skirmishes? The key, I believe, to a rebalancing mod is capturing the feel of the mod in the unit stats. It adds to the theme and pacing that the mod tries to set-up. Anything that we can do to push that along would be of tremendous help.

[Apani]

I say we should try to have the appearance of every unit reflect its stats and costs, and try to be realistic and logic as possible (e.g.: for example giving slingshots a rather short range).
As for the scale of the game, currently it is very small, with quick wars fought by even just an half stack. I think we should slow down and enlarge things, adding the feel that TATW and CoW have.

[Apani]

Since we have to fill the aspects this system doesn't account for, I propose we start by determinating how to resemble the "toughness" of each race. First, should we give more HP, more Armor points or both to tougher units?

[Jakeford]

Since we have to fill the aspects this system doesn't account for, I propose we start by determinating how to resemble the "toughness" of each race. First, should we give more HP, more Armor points or both to tougher units?

In my submod every unit with a shield icon in the bottom left corner of the unit card got an extra hit point. Sense Lizalfos have harder then skin scales and Moblins have leather like hides I gave them a small armor value even if they had no armor on them.

[Apani]

That's an idea.

On the first page of this thread, Neph said their scales are about as tough as leather. Considering Leather Armor is worth 3 points, I had given Lizalfos a natural +2 to armor.
I'm not sure thought on what to do with "big guys" such as Moblins, Geozards and Darknuts, if increasing Armor (=Tougher Skin) or Hit Points (=Can take more punishment).
However, considering Zelda easily cut Ganon down like butter in a couple hits (and let's not talk about those unlucky Moblins), I'd say to increase Hit Points.

Oh, anyways. I've been tinkering with descr_projectiles. I gave a 2 accuracy value to Ordonian farmers and tested them. The resulting inaccuracy was absurdly hilarious.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Since we have to fill the aspects this system doesn't account for, I propose we start by determinating how to resemble the "toughness" of each race. First, should we give more HP, more Armor points or both to tougher units?

That's an idea.

On the first page of this thread, Neph said their scales are about as tough as leather. Considering Leather Armor is worth 3 points, I had given Lizalfos a natural +2 to armor.
I'm not sure thought on what to do with "big guys" such as Moblins, Geozards and Darknuts, if increasing Armor (=Tougher Skin) or Hit Points (=Can take more punishment).
However, considering Zelda easily cut Ganon down like butter in a couple hits (and let's not talk about those unlucky Moblins), I'd say to increase Hit Points.

I plan to make each race have their own unique benefits. These range from the Zora having +1 morale (for their rough training regimens, even if they are primarily for their armies looking nice) and -1 armor (for their form over functionality) while Gorons have a natural +2 to armor (for their hide) and their grappling units having +1 attack (for their culture of wrestling and punching). These are examples, so they are subject to change.

I have to go through all of the races again as I lost my Real Combat files when my last computer went kaputz.

I want to try and avoid giving units more than one hp (except for the big guys, like Goron Rams). These units tend to be unbalanced. Not so much for autoresolve (that can be changed), but for actual combat. Of course, there will be some exceptions, like for the most elite of the elite (hero units, namely).

[Jakeford]

I plan to make each race have their own unique benefits. These range from the Zora having +1 morale (for their rough training regimens, even if they are primarily for their armies looking nice) and -1 armor (for their form over functionality) while Gorons have a natural +2 to armor (for their hide) and their grappling units having +1 attack (for their culture of wrestling and punching). These are examples, so they are subject to change.

I have to go through all of the races again as I lost my Real Combat files when my last computer went kaputz.

I want to try and avoid giving units more than one hp (except for the big guys, like Goron Rams). These units tend to be unbalanced. Not so much for autoresolve (that can be changed), but for actual combat. Of course, there will be some exceptions, like for the most elite of the elite (hero units, namely).

Currently in the regular version of HTW Zora units have a moral of 15 while most units have a moral of 9. I think Zora units should stay that way. One of the main points of the Zora army is that they have very good moral and if they only had a +1 moral bonus that would hardly make a difference.

Here is a list of units I gave an extra HP (many already had one) All of these units have lower then average unit numbers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Goron Rams
Ruby Guards
Fire Warriors
Iron knuckle
Bronze Knuckle
Darkhammers
Every Darknut unit except for Fokka knights and Initiates
Mechs
Hero units
Boss units
Yook smashers
bigblins
Fairy Golems
Armos statues
Deku Trees
Elder Goats
Twilight Bloats
Shield Gohma
Tank Gohma and ArmaGohma
Triforce Vanguard
There could be more I forgot about

[Apani]

For Hero units, I would add an eight tier above Exceptional instead of increasing HPs.
Also, you must decide how steep you want boni and mali to be, and how you want them to manifest: a +1 Morale bonus to Zoras might be too small to notice, althought since it comes mostly from training, they could be mostly in higher tiers and get their iconic high morale from just that.

[Apani]

We can't leave 15 to all units since morale always varies basing on tiers and recruitment category. Instead of a +1, What about a mutiplier?

As for the Moblins, I've been thinking... What about adding a warcry?

[The Holy Pilgrim]

For Hero units, I would add an eight tier above Exceptional instead of increasing HPs.
Also, you must decide how steep you want boni and mali to be, and how you want them to manifest: a +1 Morale bonus to Zoras might be too small to notice, althought since it comes mostly from training, they could be mostly in higher tiers and get their iconic high morale from just that.

Currently in the regular version of HTW Zora units have a moral of 15 while most units have a moral of 9. I think Zora units should stay that way. One of the main points of the Zora army is that they have very good moral and if they only had a +1 moral bonus that would hardly make a difference.

Here is a list of units I gave an extra HP (many already had one) All of these units have lower then average unit numbers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Goron Rams
Ruby Guards
Fire Warriors
Iron knuckle
Bronze Knuckle
Darkhammers
Every Darknut unit except for Fokka knights and Initiates
Mechs
Hero units
Boss units
Yook smashers
bigblins
Fairy Golems
Armos statues
Deku Trees
Elder Goats
Twilight Bloats
Shield Gohma
Tank Gohma and ArmaGohma
Triforce Vanguard
There could be more I forgot about

We can't leave 15 to all units since morale always varies basing on tiers and recruitment category. Instead of a +1, What about a mutiplier?

As for the Moblins, I've been thinking... What about adding a warcry?

Morale goes much deeper than simply what their morale value is. There is discipline (how well units respond to shock) to it, as well. A unit of disciplined and a morale of, say, 9, would last longer than a normal unit with a moral value of, say, 11. The numbers are sensitive and they show up in more places than just the value. Having a +1 morale and disciplined on nearly all units is more than needed.

But like I said, this is an example.

As for HP for hero units, I have found that making a rank above exceptional does not do the hero justice as opposed to simply adding a little more HP. It makes them much sturdier, and since you'll only ever have one, that's a good thing.

[Apani]

But if I take another disciplined unit from another faction and compare it to Zora a soldier, who has just a +1 bonus, would Zora morale particularly stand out?

As for heroes, couldn't their bodyguards regenerate like vanilla ones? Extra or Tier depend on how much overpowered you want heroes to be.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

But if I take another disciplined unit from another faction and compare it to Zora a soldier, who has just a +1 bonus, would Zora morale particularly stand out?

As for heroes, couldn't their bodyguards regenerate like vanilla ones? Extra or Tier depend on how much overpowered you want heroes to be.

The strength of the Zora armies is being able to hold the line better than other factions as a whole. When every unit is disciplined, they will be much more capable of surviving "terror attacks" such as cavalry rushes or fire. Compare that to an army of any other race where they have lines of cheap militia that have morale weak-points, such a small bonus will come to something much greater. I would like armies to function as a unit, not as a collection of individuals. Giving incredibly high bonuses for each unit will result in unfavorable battle balance, as I have found over much testing. Rather, a slight boost to all units will give them a reasonable boost and edge over other units. Obviously, there will be units much better than others, i.e. a Goron will be considerably stronger than a Kokiri, but overall, the boosts serve to boost the army as a whole, not just the unit.


For hero units, they will not be overpowered, but they will be able to hold their own quite well. An added HP to hero units, as I have found, enables them to perform admirably, but they are still very much susceptible to mass unit spam. For example, a bodyguard of Iron Clad Elite will be able to hold the line slightly better than their typical Iron Clad Elite counterparts even though their numbers will be smaller (Hero units will be smaller in size, but slightly more capable).

[Mattwensley]

Hey guys, just to let you know I am finding this all really interesting! In particular, I knew there were 'hidden' stats, but I wasn't sure exactly what they were. I like the direction you're heading in, but more than that I like the planning you're putting into it, and the discussion you're having! I wish I could help, but I still don't know enough about the mechanics, and would also be incredibly biased towards certain factions (every Ordon unit getting 12 hit points, armour stat of 45 and attack of 99999 ). Keep it up guys! I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this thread, and might drop an opinion in every now and then - feel free to ignore it though!

[Apani]

You should have a look at this guide: http://medieval2.heavengames.com/m2t...de/index.shtml
Modding EDU is actually very easy. I'm glad you are appreciating this.

Anyway, several heroes (like Rusl and Sokuuf) use bottom-tier units as their Bodyguards, it'd be good to increase their tier as well.

Also, here are some racial bonus I formulated:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hylian: +1 Damage in Scrub; N. Italy Climate: 2, -1, 3, 0 & +1 Heat Penalty
Gerudo: +0.1 Movement, +1 Attack in Deserts; Egypt Climate: 0, 2, 1, -2 & -2 Heat Penalty
Goron: +3 Armor (Leather Front +2, Rock Backs +1), no Heat Penalties, -6 Damage in Snow; Egypt Climate: 0, 1, 1, -8
Zora: Always Disciplined and Highly Trained, -3 Armor (Gold), -4 Damage in Snow; N. Italy Climate: 1, -1, 3, -4 & +1 Heat Penalty
Kokiri: +1 Damage in forest, +0.1 Movement speed, Hardy Infantry; N. Europe Climate: 1, -1, 4, 1 & +2 Heat Penalty
Ordona: +1 Damage in snow, Hardy Cavalry, +0.1 Horse Speed, no penalties for Rider Class; Far Northern Europe Climate: 1, -1, 3, 3 & +3 Heat Penalty
Lanayru: Dunno; Turkey Climate: 1, 1, 1, -1 & -1 Heat Penalty
Deku: -1 Morale, Low Discipline, -1 Defense Skill, +2 Damage to terrain specialists; N. Europe Climate: 1, -1, 3, 1 & +2 Heat Penalty
Moblins: +2 Charge Damage, :1.25 Upkeep Cost; N. Europe Climate: 1, -1, 3, 1 & +2 Heat Penalty
Darknut: +4 Armor, All Very Hardy, Halved Health Penalties from Armor; Egypt Climate: 0, 1, 1, -2 & -2 Heat Penalty
Lizalfos: +2 Armor, :2 Heat, +1 Damage in Deserts, -5 Damage in Snow; N. Europe Climate: 1, 0, 3, -4 & +2 Heat Penalty
Labrynna: +1 Missile Damage, +10 Range, +5 Ammo, -1 Attack, -1 Charge Damage, +1 Armor (Bronze); Mediterrean Climate: 1, 0, 2, -1
Tokay: +1 Damage in Deserts, :2 Heat, -5 Damage in Snow; Turkey Climate: 1, 2, 1, -6 & -1 Heat Penalty
Fairy: -2 Defense Skill to smaller units; Far Northern Europe Climate: 1, -1, 3, 2 & +3 Heat Penalty
Stalfos: No Upkeep, No Heat Penalty, -0.1 Mass, No Agility Bonus, Always Slow Animations, -0.2 Speed, Always Very Hardy; N. Italy Climate: -1, -3, 1, -2 Always Heavy
Sheikah: Always Scout (:2 Numbers, X1.1 Speed, Hardy), Hide Anywhere; N. Italy Climate: 1, -1, 3, 0 & +1 Heat Penalty
Ikana: No Heat Penalty; Far Northern Europe Climate: 1, -1, 3, 2 OR Egypt Climate: 0, 2, 1, -2
Twili: Units are always Frightening; Foreign Climate: 0, -1, 1, -2
Wizzrobe: -1 Defense Skill; N. Italy Climate: 1, -1, 3, 0 & +1 Heat Penalty
Zola: :10 Upkeep cost, -4 Damage in Snow; Mongol Climate: 1, 0, 2, -4

I also suggest to count weapons wielded by big creatures (such as Geozards Axes and Moblin Spears) as two handed-weapons, with the 1 Handed No Shield bonus still appliable.

Oh, anyways, I've found RC 2.0 for TATW: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post10947933

[The Holy Pilgrim]

I really like these bonuses that you came up with, Apani.

I'd like to start testing them soon