THP's Unit Balance thread

[Attaxer]

Nope. They are poor misunderstood creaturs in my book.

[k/t]

Town Guards (Militia, Urban Militia (Village), Spearmen)

• Mount Bonuses: elephant -6, horse +4, camel +2
• Attributes: hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
• Move Speed: 1.0
• Health: 1
• Attack: 3 (spear, 1h, no shield)
  
  • Attributes: light_spear

A unit with a one-handed spear and no shield makes no sense. Either it has a one-handed spear and a shield, or it has a two-handed spear.


AP doesn't affect enemy shield values.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

I changed the animation to a pikeman animation and I changed the stats accordingly.

[k/t]

The RC 2.0 guide has stats for two-handed spearmen too.

When you're deciding what the unit stats should be, it's a good idea to write them out in full, that way you can find errors easily.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type abbasid dismounted caliphs guard
dictionary abbasid_dismounted_caliphs_guard ; Dismounted Caliph's Guard, exceptional, professional, late, unique guard
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
accent Arabic
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier abbasid_dismounted_caliphs_guard, 54, 0, 1.1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, command
formation 2, 2, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, mace, 30, 1 ; mace 2 + exceptional 4 + exceptional professional 1 - guard 1 ; charge 2 + exceptional 1 ; mace 60 - exceptional 45 + heavy lamellar 15
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 2, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 11, 10, 3, metal ; heavy lamellar 9 + exceptional professional guard 2 ; defense 3 + exceptional 4 + small round 1 + agility 1 + guard 1
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5 ; heavy lamellar 7 + mace 1 + small round 1 - exceptional 3 - arab 1
stat_ground -1, 1, -1, -3
stat_mental 17, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 7, 782, 352, 146, 94, 782
armour_ug_levels 5
armour_ug_models abbasid_dismounted_caliphs_guard
ownership moors, slave

[Jakeford]

I have a question about this submod. Have the creator of it and Nephiliam agreed to add these changes into HTW or is this suppose to be a submod? im confused because Neph said that it is great to have someone else work on balancing units

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Just to inform everybody, this project is not dead and is still in the process of development.

I have been very busy as of late, but with the Summer Semester coming to a close, I am starting to have more free time.

The combat formula has been completely revised, including a new unit cost system.

Progress is still under way, albeit very slow as of late. Hopefully this will be picking up speed.

I'd also love to get the Hyrule community's opinions on what each faction should be tailored to and how one would best go about bringing about such changes. I'll be handling the formulas and I'm still going to be working on this quite closely, but I would still very much enjoy seeing the community's opinion.

[Emrys]

[Jakeford]

Well I guess I will give my opinion and observations on what neph has said he wants.

First I want to say that unit upkeep in HTW is to low. (I personally think that unit upkeep in third age is to high, a happy medium should be in place)

Kingdom of Hyrule-Good armor because almost every unit has platemail, Well balanced army with good but not excellent units for most specialties. There unit should be superior to most other units at there level of barracks because they have heavy armor but they should cost more.

Gorons-Infantry has good defense and excellent attack, bomb throwers and gun powder kegs should be deadly.

Zora-Units are fairly well armored if you look at them however they can't compare to Hyrule's armor excellent formations and moral, units are really good at holding the line and rarely get disorganized.

Ordona-CAVALRY! Light cavalry (Ordona cavalry unit) is really fast and good at combat but they are still light cav. Heavy Cav (goat lords and possible Ordona knights later on) should be the best in the game in charging, attack, and defense. Most infantry are just medicore in combat at best, Oronda rangers make decent archers.

Gerudo, units are well trained but poorly armored (they can all make it through the Gerudo training grounds) best archers and Horse archers in the game, good light cav.

Kokiri-Masses of poor infantry act as meat shields while ranged units and more powerful units kill as much as they can.

Gohma-masses upon masses of tiny soldiers can easily out maneuver and surround the enemy while tank and armo Gohma trample enemy soldiers. (I think this feel is captured perfectly as they are, not saying they don't need to be balanced out like the other factions though)

Labrynna-Gunners and cannons can mow down enemy formations and poop on enemy moral, decent spearmen in early and late period can hold the line and kill cav easily. Knights of Ambi and Palace watch make decent heavy infantry. STEAMPUNK!

Moblins-brutal but disorganized and poorly trained units can charge in and bust lots of sculls in but can't really hold a line.

Darknut liegion-lacks cav. and archers but heavy infantry and pretty much walking tanks, captures perfect as it is (but of course that doesn't mean it doesn't need balancing)

Fairies or Tarm-annoys the enemy to death with masses of tiny fairies shouting HEY LISTEN while bigger fairies shoot pink beams of death and burn entire groups to death at once.

Deku-pretty much harasses the enemy to death, hides in the forest, ambushes, then runs, has many terrain advantages. Units are terrible in combat and have bad moral however. (can't hold a line, bad formation)

Ikana-kind of like the Kingdom of Hyrule but a little different, soldiers have less armor but better weapons, they use chariots rather then then horsemen as there cav.

Edit-I'm updating my list

Wizzrobe-powerfull ranged units but poor in hand to hand combat, archots act as meat shields to keep the enemie's away from the wizards as long as possible, the archots are very important!

lizalfos-really fast infantry they are good at doing damage first, really good at flanking, dinfos make decent heavy infantry and darkhammers make really good heavy infantry.

Lanryu-im not quite sure about them, I do know that they are very rich, and that they rely on speed more then armor, they are also fairly well balanced.

[CornishGH]

Well I guess I will give my opinion and observations on what neph has said he wants.

Gerudo, units are well trained but poorly armored (they can all make it through the Gerudo training grounds) best archers and Horse archers in the game, good light cav.

Last version, if I recall correctly, Gerudo were fairly OP as they could get animal ranches within 2 turns of starting the game and basic cavalry 2 turns after that. Add that to the fact that none of Hyrule's starting units were anything other than light infantry and they were basically the Scourge of God. They're a little less OP in 3.0 though. Might be worth implementing something to make their infantry better, though, like higher stamina?

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Last version, if I recall correctly, Gerudo were fairly OP as they could get animal ranches within 2 turns of starting the game and basic cavalry 2 turns after that. Add that to the fact that none of Hyrule's starting units were anything other than light infantry and they were basically the Scourge of God. They're a little less OP in 3.0 though. Might be worth implementing something to make their infantry better, though, like higher stamina?

As the Hylians and Gerudo function now, they are kind of opposites:

The Hylians now have much better armor and they can keep their formation quite well. However, they're somewhat slow (due to heavy armor), but still able to use their Recruits and Cavalry to flank when needed. The Crossbowmen are also pretty good at countering other archer units with decent armor to protect them during their slow reload times.

The Gerudo are much lighter on their feet than the Hylians, but also much less durable in toe-to-toe combat. Their tactics lie in maneuvering around slower forces with their swift foot and cavalry units. They aren't complete pushovers in close quarters, but it's certainly not recommended to use the lower-tier Gerudo against anything tougher than Swords Recruits when fighting the Hylians. They use a lot more of the strike-where-weak strategy. And yet, the AI is still pretty capable in using the Gerudo if they need to enter close-quarters, so I'm pretty happy. Might have to nerf the mounted archers as they might be a bit too strong for their cost. Hylian Crossbows do quite a good job at picking off the cavalry, though.

[CornishGH]

As the Hylians and Gerudo function now, they are kind of opposites:

The Hylians now have much better armor and they can keep their formation quite well. However, they're somewhat slow (due to heavy armor), but still able to use their Recruits and Cavalry to flank when needed. The Crossbowmen are also pretty good at countering other archer units with decent armor to protect them during their slow reload times.

The Gerudo are much lighter on their feet than the Hylians, but also much less durable in toe-to-toe combat. Their tactics lie in maneuvering around slower forces with their swift foot and cavalry units. They aren't complete pushovers in close quarters, but it's certainly not recommended to use the lower-tier Gerudo against anything tougher than Swords Recruits when fighting the Hylians. They use a lot more of the strike-where-weak strategy. And yet, the AI is still pretty capable in using the Gerudo if they need to enter close-quarters, so I'm pretty happy. Might have to nerf the mounted archers as they might be a bit too strong for their cost. Hylian Crossbows do quite a good job at picking off the cavalry, though.

Probably the number one way to make AI Hylians better would be to make them value repeating crossbows and especially trebuchets less. I've seen generals enter a battle with literally 5 or 6 of them after which, of course, it's pretty simple to slaughter them with mounted units.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Thanks for the input, Jakeford.

I'll see how factions end up and then I'll twist them a bit to match preferred strategies for the specific faction.

For example, if the Gerudo aren't mobile enough, I shall tweak them a bit so that they are.

The most difficult factions I see balancing are the Wizzrobe. We'll see how they turn out during testing and I'll find ways to make them balanced, yet powerful.

And upkeep and flat-out unit costs will be boosted. I'm liking the pricing of units as they are turning out right now, but we'll see how they do in the campaign.

@Emrys:

Yes, it is good to be back at doing what I love: modding

[Emrys]

Alrighty then! Lets get to it... Starting off we have the Kingdom of Hyrule. If their visuals are anything to go by they seem to have well made arms and armor to protect themselves and dish out damage. It would be nice to see them in a position not of mediocrity in any field, but have them be rather good at all, just not excellent, such as Ordona with cav and the Darknuts with infantry. Let their mounted knights have a thundering charge, let their iron clads be able to hold most lines, and have their crossbowmen be able to trade well with many other of their ranged counterparts. Whilst this may seem to be favoring them in the balance, increasing the recruitment time for elites and increasing the unit upkeep can balance out their strong overall roster.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Quick update: The Hylians are "complete", save for heroes and mercs.

The Gerudo, Gorons, and Zora are being rebalanced now. The basic units of the three factions have been revised and are undergoing testing.

[Emrys]

Just a quick question... How do you plan on balancing the Sheikah?

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Small groups with high speed, high attack, and high defense. They will be vulnerable to massed missile attacks, but they shall be quick enough to catch most foot infantry and foot missile troops.

That is the intended plan, though. I haven't reached them yet, but that is what I see them as being able to do.

Their situation is a unique one as they are small and highly trained, but they will be outnumbered by almost every faction. Possibly, I will give them the ability to frighten infantry so that when they strike, they can break ranks quickly and effectively. But should they get pinned by cavalry or stand under missile fire, they shall fall rather quickly.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

I'll be posting general outlines of what I wish to achieve with each faction either today or tomorrow.

[Xebenkeck]

THP, I play the Deku Tribes the most so I'll comment on them.

Strengths
Almost all units have a ranged attack, despite it being weak, any ranged attack is better than none.
Large numbers.
Forest fighters, get advantages when fighting in forests, this helps offset the penalty their ranged attack has in trees.

Weaknesses
Don't like winter, they are glorified plants, most plants don't like winter.
No mobile spearmen, only unit with spear bonuses are Deku Baba's
No Calvary.
Low morale and untrained.

They seem like they should be a faction that can pepper the hell out of an opponent, and when the time is right send in the heavy hitters to finish the job.

Peahats should be that unit they can send in to clean up. Peahats are not rendered calvary, so they should be able to mop up any infantry and spearmen that has been depleted by constant deku nut peppering.

Deku Baba's are the only unit that has a spear bonus, so they are the ultimate defense for the Deku Tribes. Because they have no spearmen, they need some sort of defense against Calvary and deku patches need to be this. But in order for this to work the Deku Tribes need to be able to force opponents to approach them.

Yucca and Pine scrubs are the deku's true ranged unit. And because the Deku's need to force opponents to come to them, Yucca scrubs should have one of the best ranges in the game. Second only to Dune Archer I say. This hopefully means the Dekus can lure enemy calvary into a deku Baba patch, and while they are fighting them, hopefully they are in the range of all the Deku units so they can unleash a bombardment upon them.

As for other units. Forest Scrubs are your standard infantry, Lily Scrubs are special ambush/flank units as they can cross rivers, and royal scrubs are your melee unit that can stand toe to toe with other elite units in the game.

As for weaknesses.
Plants dont like winter, they should have a disadvantage in snow

Calvary are their bane, because of their low morale and training they are highly susceptible to calvary charges killing and breaking their army. Careful placements of Deku Baba patches though can offset this weakness. But that wont always work.

[Jakeford]

Yucca and Pine scrubs are the deku's true ranged unit. And because the Deku's need to force opponents to come to them, Yucca scrubs should have one of the best ranges in the game. Second only to Dune Archer I say.

Ranged units that are probably better

Dune archers
Ice archers (However they have less range)
Labrynna Gunners (However they have less range)
Zunu Crossbowmen

[Emrys]

I never could win with the Scrubs.... Their play style is drastically different from mine. They annoy you to death and I work best with the Darknuts and Hylians. Heavy infantry all the way!