THP's Unit Balance thread

[The Holy Pilgrim]

They will be able to, I can assure you that.

What I meant in my post is that the units in certain hero units will be few, yet elite, while some will have full units that are only slightly better than the standard unit. The Triforce Vanguards will be a decently sized and elite unit.

[Baerke Hinn Gauzki]

Sooooo.. How's the pilgrim doing with this then??

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Here's another question for you guys:

How powerful is a Goron's punch, exactly? Can it go through mail? Hylian armor? Gohma carapace?

[quenya]

i'd say that it could. in MM it's on fire. that strikes me as a very powerful punch.

[Duke Serkol]

i'd say that it could. in MM it's on fire. that strikes me as a very powerful punch.

Mhm, it's the same as Link swinging the Megaton Hammer, it shatters large boulders.

[Agent 51]

Mhm, it's the same as Link swinging the Megaton Hammer, it shatters large boulders.

Then again, this may be due to Link having magic as a Goron as it works with the spikes that come out when it rolls.

And magic among the Goron's seems to be exceptionally rare.

[Mjolnr839]

Here's another question for you guys:

How powerful is a Goron's punch, exactly? Can it go through mail? Hylian armor? Gohma carapace?

I'd say not go through the mail, but Hurt like hell and break bones, dent plate, maybe go through it if the Goron is better than average, and smash a Gohma into a puddle.

That's my take.

[Ulfgard the Unmaker]

Here's another question for you guys:

How powerful is a Goron's punch, exactly? Can it go through mail? Hylian armor? Gohma carapace?

Hylian armor... I'm guessing the average Goron would be able to knock a Hylian on his/her ass and knock the breath out of them, but probably can't crush* the armor in with fists alone.

It depends on how you physics. Chainmail is designed to stop the slash of a blade; it does this very well. However, it does little at all to disperse a crushing, bludgeoning blow. The nature of the armor does not cushion or absorb the force effectively. But I guarantee that if you're denting plate, you're rendering the protection of chainmail against the blunt trauma effectively nil.



I seem to remember Neph saying something about a Gohma carapace being roughly equivalent to bone. A Goron could probably make quite a mess of it. I imagine a mature Gohma would have several exoskeleton fractures after every hit, an adolescent or juvenile would probably be powdered by a punch, and the larvae are probably as prone to being squished as a fairy would be.
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*Of course, the best weapon against plate armor are crushing, smashing weapons. The evolution of plate armor saw an increasing prevalence of maces and warhammers to crush them. I guess what it boils down to is whether or not a Goron can generate the same sort of force with his fists that other units can generate with maces/hammers. If the answer is YES, then essentially ALL Goron units are inherently effective against armor.

At this point, we're presented with a conflict between lore and balanced gameplay, but at the same time, Gorons are already low in number and most of their troops are effective against armor as it is. It may not end up being too imbalancing overall, just because there are so few of them compared to other armies. The only army that would really suffer here would be the Darknuts, who are even fewer in number than the Gorons and really rely on their armor.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Thanks for the info, guys

I'm wondering if I should make Goron fists have the ap attribute so that they would have a low-ish attack value, but they could still stand against well armored enemies without giving them too much of an advantage over lightly armored troops.

Thoughts on this?

[Duke Serkol]

True I suppose, even though just punching doesn't drain the meter.

Come to think of it, maybe it has more to do with Darmani being an exceptional warrior.

[Ulfgard the Unmaker]

I'm not sure what I think of that idea. Theoretically it sounds like a decent idea, but it makes me nervous. I'm assuming we're talking about the Guardians here? I'm concerned that if their attack power comes down too drastically, they're not going to be able to stand up to the more numerous armies. It's something that would require pretty careful tweaking.

If there's an easy way to test this (such as one of the .txt files directly controlling stats), I'm all for helping to test/tweak. If you would edit appropriately and send me the edits so I could see how it affects the gameplay, I'd be willing to help you there.

I will probably end up being a Goron player almost exclusively anyway, so the tweaks would get tested pretty frequently.

[Scar86]

they are listed as "Slave" in the unplayable section. go to descr_strat in the campaign folder, and Copy "slave" to playable, and you can play as them.

For Custom battles go to descr_sm_factions and change the line "Custom battle availaibility" From no to yes

[Agent 51]

My way of beating the Goat Lords is to swamp them with Miniblins.

The fact that Miniblins don't rout after the initial charge means they can usually hold out until the Goat Lords are surrounded.

[Mjolnr839]

I will defend Ordona rangers as the third best Archer unit after Dune archers and emerald archers with my life.

So not everything is subpar. I actually think Ordona units in general, including Rangers could use a buff though.

[Mjolnr839]

Really? I find shock troopers way overpriced for the cost. 450 upkeep for a 9-9 unit? No way in hell.

[Scar86]

Really? I find shock troopers way overpriced for the cost. 450 upkeep for a 9-9 unit? No way in hell.

Meant to say "My favorite in custom battles" in the campaign they cripple you're military

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

Meant to say "My favorite in custom battles" in the campaign they cripple you're military

Pretty much all Zora military units are overpriced as far as upkeep is concerned. Zora units are innately expensive. This was intended. Unfortunately, since unit upkeep as it stands now is half the cost of the unit per turn, the Zora are stuck with either embarrassingly small armies or a massive debt. The AI seems to draw money out of thin-air, so it is not a problem for them. Human players know nothing of this sorcery. My suggestion is to make upkeep a fifth of the unit cost. I think that is a fair price and it is also the ratio I found on the diplomat while I was comparing my Zora unit costs.

[Scar86]

Pretty much all Zora military units are overpriced as far as upkeep is concerned. Zora units are innately expensive. This was intended. Unfortunately, since unit upkeep as it stands now is half the cost of the unit per turn, the Zora are stuck with either embarrassingly small armies or a massive debt. The AI seems to draw money out of thin-air, so it is not a problem for them. Human players know nothing of this sorcery. My suggestion is to make upkeep a fifth of the unit cost. I think that is a fair price and it is also the ratio I found on the diplomat while I was comparing my Zora unit costs.

Excellent Suggestion as always Avatar. I wonder if the Ai uses the add money cheat? XD

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

Excellent Suggestion as always Avatar. I wonder if the Ai uses the add money cheat? XD

Thanks. The AI must be doing something shady, as they always have "boundless" wealth regardless of any variable. A Zora AI with less territories than I owned in the campaign was able to support multiple full stacks of armies, including many Big Octo battle-platforms, while still having boundless wealth. The AI will never go down in the financial charts throughout the game. It is as if they got everything for free. I on the other hand could barely support half a stack without going into debt, more territories than them, majority cheap units, no big octo battle platforms. AI cheating is something I am used to. In C&C Generals Zero Hour, the AI could call in support powers from your side of the battlefield. This resulted in their powers always dealing damage, as their guys would spawn in your base. They could also use the support powers if their Command Center was destroyed. This is also illegal in Generals. Another example would be Dark Planet: Battle for Natrolis. Enemies would make Tier 4 units and structures at Tier 3. There are a lot of examples of where the AI just cheats forth-right and I am used to it by now as a result.

[Avatar of the Ice Wolf]

While on the topic of unit balancing then, here is something you might find interesting. Big Octo Battle Platforms can instantly kill any unit with its charge. This includes Darunia and his Ruby guards. No joke.