THP's Unit Balance thread

[PaulH]

That really sucks Holy Pilgrim, hopefully you'll get the balancing back on its feet soon!

[Mjolnr839]

Ok, I have some good news and some bad news:

Bad News:
For some stupid reason, when I restarted my computer, I lost the EDU with all of my revisions, so I'll have to start from scratch. I had all of Hyrule completed, too

Good News:
Thanks to Neph's faction threads, I'll better be able to determine which units are special, common, etc. I made some "mistakes" according to the threads, so I'll be able to rework them. I mean, not that I wouldn't, it's just now that they'll be revised sooner than before

Where are those damned Techpriests?

[Mattwensley]

Where are those damned Techpriests?

Question not the Techpriests.
Question not the Enginseers.
Question not the Machine Spirits.
Question not the Omnissiah.
That way corruption lies.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Ok, I'm finally back to the Knuckles.

I have a question, though: how good are Bronze/Iron Knuckles compared to the Triforce Vanguard and Ironclad Elites?

[Attaxer]

Since the Triforce Vanguard is supposed to be the most Elite force in Hyrule, I would put them above the Iron Knuckles, and have the Iron Knuckles on par with Ironclad Elites, having Bronze Knuckles Inferior to the rest.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

I'm thinking of making it so only one unit of Triforce Vanguard can be on the campaign map at any given time, given their status.

What do you guys think?

@Attaxer: Thanks for the info. Is there anybody that can back this up? I just want to make sure that I have the right stats for these units (not that I don't trust you, Attaxer).

[Scar86]

I'm thinking of making it so only one unit of Triforce Vanguard can be on the campaign map at any given time, given their status.

What do you guys think?

@Attaxer: Thanks for the info. Is there anybody that can back this up? I just want to make sure that I have the right stats for these units (not that I don't trust you, Attaxer).

Sounds good to me, but if there is only one unit of them allowed at a time, they better be god-destroying. Or at least able to grapple with Heroes.

[UndyingNephalim]

I'm thinking of making it so only one unit of Triforce Vanguard can be on the campaign map at any given time, given their status.

What do you guys think?

Sort of support this. I want special units to only be acquirable during certain events or situations. I was going to have the Triforce Vanguard spawn if the Temple of Time comes under siege.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

I'm not sure what I think of that idea. Theoretically it sounds like a decent idea, but it makes me nervous. I'm assuming we're talking about the Guardians here? I'm concerned that if their attack power comes down too drastically, they're not going to be able to stand up to the more numerous armies. It's something that would require pretty careful tweaking.

If there's an easy way to test this (such as one of the .txt files directly controlling stats), I'm all for helping to test/tweak. If you would edit appropriately and send me the edits so I could see how it affects the gameplay, I'd be willing to help you there.

I will probably end up being a Goron player almost exclusively anyway, so the tweaks would get tested pretty frequently.

That would be great

Sort of support this. I want special units to only be acquirable during certain events or situations. I was going to have the Triforce Vanguard spawn if the Temple of Time comes under siege.

Sounds good to me

[Scar86]

I have a lot of free time on my hands coming up, so I can do some testing too if you need it Pilgrim.


Also, some suggestions for the campaign


If Nephalim is ok with it, could we change the Generals Bodygaurd of Some of the factions? Because some of the factions aren't able to protect their generals at all in a fight.


Like for Example, the Lizalfols generals. they are guarded by Songsayers, which are nice to look at. But melt away in a fight since they are support units. I think it would be smarter to have the generals Protected by Dark-hammers or River-runners. OR beef up the song-sayers.

I Wrote down a list of each bodygaurd unit, and whether or not I think they should be changed.



Hyrule: Ironclad Elites- Perfect

Gerudo: Gerudodorf: Bad, 31 soldiers 10 att, 3 def means general dies quick. I suggest giving them 2 hp

Goron: Fire warriors, only 19 of them though so the general can get closed in on pretty quickly. seems fine to me regardless, I'll leave this one up to you.

Zora: Shock troopers; Perfect


Gohma: Pack of queens. not terrible, but since they only have a unit size of 32 and an hp of one, they die quickly and get the general killed. maybe give them 2 hp

Orodona Province: Goat Lords. Fantastic, outstanding. everything a bodygaurd unit is meant to be. Powerful, but not unstoppable.

Lanayru Province: Gaurdian Maidens

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Terrible, an absolute joke. 11 units, 1 hp, 12 att, 11 def = Zora souffle. need at least 3 hp with those kind of numbers. bump it up to 25, give them 2 hp, and call it a day.


Deku: Perfect. Damage-dealing, while not being too OP and able to protect the general.

Darknut Legion: Mighties. Meh, Personally I would Prefer Masters, but they get the job done.

Kokiri: Grove watchers. Just fine

Moblin: Moblin Grunts. Feel a tad weak, but maybe because I'm used to playing as more powerful factions. Otherwise fine with me. Again, I'll leave this one up to you.

Lizalfols: Song-Sayers Already mentioned; but abysmal. 5 att, 6 def, 1 hp 32 units. General gets creamed. need att/def boost of at least 6, and 2 hp.

Labrynna: Palace watch: Very Good.

Faries of Tarm: Great Faries, absolutley devestating. feel way to powerful.



Rebels: All-purpose script peasant?: Not really a problem. It got a chuckle out of me. In all the rebel campaign's I've played. The Generals bodygaurd for a Rebel General is Light Cavalry, Holibars in my case. They're not as strong as the generals bodygaurd of other factions, but they do their job well regardless. The problem here is that in The campaign I'm playing now (Britannia). It makes sense that Holibars, which are a Mercenary horse IIRC would opt to be the Rebel bodygaurd. THey're kind of an all-purpose unit after-all. But the question is, how do we decide on a Rebel Bodygaurd if the factions are so diffrent from one another? Would it really make sense to see a group of Rebellious Minutemen Protecting a Rebel General in the desert? They're really isn't a one-size fits all, all purpose unit in the current roster that would make sense. So Perhaps a Mercenary unit like tokay Slaves? Or Zuna Merchanment? Or Maurauders? (When Nephalim eventually adds them in.)





I also think that the unit roster for the rebel faction in the campaign needs to be expanded on, because right now they don't have a lot of recruitable units. As a matter of fact, they can only recruit one type of unit per territory.=, and Not all of their settlements can recruit units, even when fully upgraded XD. Also as a side note, some rebel skins would be nice. I'd love to fight some Mad scrubs or some dirt-covered kokiri carrying rusty blades!



I wasn't able to play as the event based factions And I didn't wait around to fight them

[quenya]

how did you enable the rebel faction? i couldn't find them with the others.

[Stal Keeta]

[B

Orodona Province: Goat Lords. Fantastic, outstanding. everything a bodygaurd unit is meant to be. Powerful, but not unstoppable.


[/B]

Weird.
They somehow ended up beating me up almost everytime I fought them.
Not as a general unit, but the normal ones that can be recruited.
Especially in campaign.
They are usually spammed by the AI.
If they were just used as general's bodyguard I wouldn´t complain, but I´m getting tired of 500 goat lord completely annihilating my 2000+ men armies.
For example, they can charge into two rows of spearmen, absolutely obliterating the first row and decreasing the second one to just about 40 soldiers. On their first charge, without having engaged in melee at all. And thats just one unit.
With hard goat spams, I got defeated in less than five minutes twice already.

Not sure if balancing problem or I just got bad at getting rid of cav, though.
Someone can try, do a 5k - 5k or 10k - 10k battle with Ordona vs. any faction. Give the random faction a well balanced army and just spam goat lords with Ordona. The result should be Ordona sweeping their opponents aside.

I haven´t played Ordona in campaign myself yet, so I´m not sure if their upkeep can make up for this. The AI loves to use the 0 upkeep for Ordonian Farmers bug, so I can´t tell, heard that Ordona gets quite a good income, though.

Whew, long first post.

[Attaxer]

No, I'm pulling stuff completely out my booty hole here. You're perfectly fine to seek a second opinion. I'm just saying given their status and giving them supreme reign during times of strife I'm feeling they should be the best of the best, with the superior training that they should receive. I like the idea of giving them a big limitation. It would make it easier for them to come across as the SF/Army Ranger Unit of Hyrule.

[quenya]

i'm not sure. i think that the iron knuckles are supposed to be very powerful. i think they might surpass the Triforce Vanguards. not the bronze knuckles though.

[Mjolnr839]

If you do put a limit on them, I'd have more than one. Say 5 max.

And i say definately better than Bronze Knuckles, maybe on par with iron.

[Attaxer]

If there was a limit on them, that would imply that they were in fact more powerful than the Iron Knuckles. If not, then I'd suggest a similar limitation on them as well. I understand this is obvious, but I felt like it needed to be said.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

If there was a limit on them, that would imply that they were in fact more powerful than the Iron Knuckles. If not, then I'd suggest a similar limitation on them as well. I understand this is obvious, but I felt like it needed to be said.

All of the units labelled as "special" in Neph's threads will be very tough in combat compared to other units of their caliber, but they will be limited.

And the more elite a unit is (also depending on race), units will be more and more rare.



@Scar: Certain hero units will have an elite bodyguard whilst others shall be in charge of regiments of somewhat better trained units.

[Scar86]

All of the units labelled as "special" in Neph's threads will be very tough in combat compared to other units of their caliber, but they will be limited.

And the more elite a unit is (also depending on race), units will be more and more rare.



@Scar: Certain hero units will have an elite bodyguard whilst others shall be in charge of regiments of somewhat better trained units.

No, I mean the triforce Vangaurd ought to be able to go toe-to-toe with heroes, since they are so elite.

[PaulH]

You're thinking on limiting how many can be fielded in battle? I'll be honest in that I'm against such limitations for a unit :/

[The Holy Pilgrim]

You're thinking on limiting how many can be fielded in battle? I'll be honest in that I'm against such limitations for a unit :/

Certain units, yes. That way one cannot spam these very powerful units. Not limited to one or two units, per sae, but the replenishment times will be substantially longer than "standard" units.

However, unit sizes will be somewhat generalized. By that, I mean that although the player won't be able to field an infinite number of certain units (only a select few will have this), their size on the battlefield will make up for that. Sometimes, they might be the same size as other units, but they'll be a rarity in the campaign map. Some of these elite units, however, will be half the size of "standard" units.

All of this is subject to change as testing is done.