THP's Unit Balance thread

[Apani]

As it stands now they have a natural +3 Armour (I counted the leather front as +2 and the Rocky back as +1 basing on the valour for shields strapped to the back, but I might increase it by an additional +1), +2 Defense Skill (For their arms; not counting the usual +3 Agility from being unarmored) and +1 Shield (from their arms, again). And by the way, defense skill isn't obtained only from your agility, but also from your weapons, and goron fists count as weapons. Anyways, I was considering about following k/t mini-project to substitue armour piercing with supposedly more balancing values: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Eliminating-AP

Here are the stats of Tribal Monks, it should be understandable at least in part (the attack is especially high because of the eliminated AP, otherwise it would have been 14):

Tribal Monks
Elite, Infantry, Heavy, Elder, Heavy Poleaxe
Numbers: 32
Mass: 2.484375 (G 1.2, E 0.125, BW X1.25, P X1.5)
Formation: 2.2, 1.8, 4.4, 3.6
Health: 1, 3
Attributes: Hardy
Attack: 20, 6 (P 12, 5, H 1, E 1, E 3, 1, G 3) 0.5 x-radius, ME +3, Piercing
Delay: 90 (P 90, H 15, E -30, G 15)
Defense: Armor 5 (S 3, EN 2) Skill 12 (P 5, H -1, E 3, G 2, A 3) Shield 2 (A 1, EN 1)
Heat: 0 (P 3, E -2)
Movement: 1 Fast
Morale: 16 (E 14, N 2)
Discipline: Disciplined
Training: Trained
Terrain: 1, 1, 0, -7 Light 2H

[Apani]

As it stands, the Zora have 3 armour points just like Goron's natural 3, because I simply took partial plate and divided it by 4. However, I think I'll give Goron a natural +5 Armour instead (+2 Leather Armor, +1 Shield Strapped to the Back, +2 Iron Helmet & Pauldrons); as it stands, Goron die pretty fast in melee, but that's mostly because I made them fight with Armour Piercing Units (Zora Voulges and Axes and Gerudo Glaives)

By the way, I've been rewatching the faction roosters and their characteristics, and I've decided to change some Strenghts-Weaknesses descriptions, see and tell me if you agree:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hyrule: Large selection of heavy troops. Poor light infantry and cavalry.
Gerudo: Excellent light soldiers and unmatched archers. Heavy infantry is very rare.
Gorons: Innate strenght and mastery of explosives. Numerical disadvantage and no archers.
Zora: Excellent training and unbreakable discipline. Impractical and obstructive equipment.
Kokiri: Numerous and hardy light infantry. Poorly trained and weak in combat.

[Jakeford]

As it stands, the Zora have 3 armour points just like Goron's natural 3, because I simply took partial plate and divided it by 4. However, I think I'll give Goron a natural +5 Armour instead (+2 Leather Armor, +1 Shield Strapped to the Back, +2 Iron Helmet & Pauldrons); as it stands, Goron die pretty fast in melee, but that's mostly because I made them fight with Armour Piercing Units (Zora Voulges and Axes and Gerudo Glaives)

By the way, I've been rewatching the faction roosters and their characteristics, and I've decided to change some Strenghts-Weaknesses descriptions, see and tell me if you agree:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hyrule: Large selection of heavy troops. Poor light infantry and cavalry.
Gerudo: Excellent light soldiers and unmatched archers. Heavy infantry is very rare.
Gorons: Innate strenght and mastery of explosives. Numerical disadvantage and no archers.
Zora: Excellent training and unbreakable discipline. Impractical and obstructive equipment.
Kokiri: Numerous and hardy light infantry. Poorly trained and weak in combat.

Those are good descriptions, but the it is also notable that the Kokiri suffer from very bad morale and that should be in their. Knights of Hyrule make excellent heavy cavalry for the Kingdom of Hyrule, not sure if you meant all cavalry for the KOH or just the light cavalry. (mounted recruits)

[The Holy Pilgrim]

As it stands, the Zora have 3 armour points just like Goron's natural 3, because I simply took partial plate and divided it by 4. However, I think I'll give Goron a natural +5 Armour instead (+2 Leather Armor, +1 Shield Strapped to the Back, +2 Iron Helmet & Pauldrons); as it stands, Goron die pretty fast in melee, but that's mostly because I made them fight with Armour Piercing Units (Zora Voulges and Axes and Gerudo Glaives)

By the way, I've been rewatching the faction roosters and their characteristics, and I've decided to change some Strenghts-Weaknesses descriptions, see and tell me if you agree:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hyrule: Large selection of heavy troops. Poor light infantry and cavalry.
Gerudo: Excellent light soldiers and unmatched archers. Heavy infantry is very rare.
Gorons: Innate strenght and mastery of explosives. Numerical disadvantage and no archers.
Zora: Excellent training and unbreakable discipline. Impractical and obstructive equipment.
Kokiri: Numerous and hardy light infantry. Poorly trained and weak in combat.

I like these. Perhaps they can be a bit expanded upon?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hyrule-

Strength: Infantry can serve many roles; disciplined troops.
Weakness: Lacks a diverse selection of missile and cavalry units.

Gerudo-

Strength: Excellent archers as well as quick infantry.
Weakness: Severely lacking in defensive roles; most units are poorly protected.

Gorons-

Strength: Incredibly powerful infantry; uses gunpowder and fire to terrorize enemies
Weakness: Lacking in ranged support; relies very heavily on brute force.

Zora-

Strength: Highly disciplined troops; tight, maneuverable formations.
Weakness: Suffers of poor armor quality; armies are inefficient in snow and desert.

Kokiri-

Strength: Fleet-footed skirmishers; armies are large in quantity
Weakness: Infantry are poorly trained and untrained in close combat.

Deku Tribes-

Strength: Many units are specialists in particular climates; excellent guerrilla fighters.
Weakness: Completely inept at close combat; extremely low morale.

Stalfos-

Strength: Armies are made up of the undead of many, other factions; unroutable.
Weakness: Slow-moving forces; units are typically less skilled than their living counterparts.

Ordona-

Strength: Powerful Elder Goats and various cavalry units.
Weakness: Infantry are typically unskilled compared to other nations.

Gohma-

Strength: Armies are large in number and highly organized. Cheap units.
Weakness: Many units are small and weak compared to other factions.

Darknuts-

Strength: Pound for pound, infantry are the strongest of any faction; units are heavily armored. They are supported by the Zuna.
Weakness: Very slow units; susceptible to massed missile fire. Very few in number.

Sheikah-

Strength: Very quick and highly capable units; units can hide anywhere.
Weakness: Very lightly armored and very few in number.

Labrynna-

Strength: Advanced weaponry and tough Mechs.
Weakness: Relies heavily on gunpowder support; few choices of heavy infantry.

Faeries of Tarm-

Strength: Swarms upon swarms of cheap units. Powerful magic.
Weakness: Strong units are expensive and rare.

Ikana-

Strength: Highly skilled warriors and highly disciplined armies; supported by the Garo.
Weakness: Not as heavily armored or defensive as other infantry-focused factions.

Moblins-

Strength: Infantry are capable of brutal attacks; overwhelming numbers.
Weakness: Units are impetuous and might not listen; very little defense.

Lizalfos-

Strength: Extremely capable fighters in the desert and the forest; swift infantry.
Weakness: Few mounted choices and even fewer ranged units.

Wizzrobe-

Strength: Incredibly powerful magic.
Weakness: Few in number; wizards are expensive.

Zola-

Strength: Savage and adaptable units.
Weakness: Undisciplined and unresponsive units.

Twili-

Strength: Terrifying invading force; powerful infantry and sorcerors.
Weakness: Ineffective in extreme climates.

[Apani]

The poor morale is implied from the poor training. For KOH, I'll change it to "Unskilled light units".

[Apani]

I think those should stay as laconic as possible. I also think you shouldn't highlight a single powerful unit like Elder Goats.
You say Hyrule has a small choice of missiles and cavalry, but this is a problem with most factions (they have 2 Cavalry Units, Ordonians have 4).

[The Holy Pilgrim]

I think those should stay as laconic as possible. I also think you shouldn't highlight a single powerful unit like Elder Goats.
You say Hyrule has a small choice of missiles and cavalry, but this is a problem with most factions (they have 2 Cavalry Units, Ordonians have 4).

Yes, I agree with all of what you say here. You are most definitely right.

[Jakeford]

I have a few things to ADD to those descriptions, but pretty good!

Twili-Lacks cavalry
Darknut-Lacks cavalry and missile units. (I suppose slow units applies no cav)
Labrynna-Use of Bronze rather then iron means their weapons and armor and weaker then usual.
Gerudo-excellent food archers AND mounted archers.

And this is what I think the Kingdom of Hyrule's description should be.

Good all-round mix of heavy units.
Limited selection of light units.

[Apani]

I guess we shouldn't worry too much about descriptions for now, we'll rethink about them when we'll be done with each kingdom; now let's think about balance, here are some quality values I formulated:
Hyrule:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Militia: Town Guards (Perphaps Peasant Militia?), Swordsmen Recruits, Mounted Recruits.
Average: Hylian Infantry, Crossbowmen.
Superior: Castle Guards.
Elite: Hyrulean / Flail Knights (perphaps Superior?), Mounted Hyrulean Knights, Ironclad Elites
Exceptional: Triforce Vanguards.
I don't know about the training of Castle Guards. Those might range from elite to average.

Gerudo:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Superior: Marauders, Glaive Grunts, Mounted Marauders, Gerudadorf (maybe elite?)
Elite: Scouts, Dune Archers, Mounted Dune Archers.
Exceptional: Wind Witches.
These are all pretty high because Gerudo are all drafted from birth. Don't know about Bronze Knuckles.

Goron:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Peasant Militia: Goron Guardians, Goron Berzerkers, Goron Miners
Average: Tribal Monks
Superior: Bomb Throwers, Fire Warriors
Elite: Ruby Guards
They're lower because Gorons lack professional training, they should get big racial boni to compensate, anyways.

Zora:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Elite: Zora Infantry, Zora Blademasters, Zora Mages, Zora Healers, Zora Infiltrators
Exceptional: Shock Troopers, Sapphire Wardens.
Since the training level is very high.

By the way, do you still have the RC2.0 files? Or did you lose them as well?

[Sir Aroun]

I guess we shouldn't worry too much about descriptions for now, we'll rethink about them when we'll be done with each kingdom; now let's think about balance, here are some quality values I formulated:
Hyrule:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Militia: Town Guards (Perphaps Peasant Militia?), Swordsmen Recruits, Mounted Recruits.
Average: Hylian Infantry, Crossbowmen.
Superior: Castle Guards.
Elite: Hyrulean / Flail Knights (perphaps Superior?), Mounted Hyrulean Knights, Ironclad Elites
Exceptional: Triforce Vanguards.
I don't know about the training of Castle Guards. Those might range from elite to average.

Gerudo:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Superior: Marauders, Glaive Grunts, Mounted Marauders, Gerudadorf (maybe elite?)
Elite: Scouts, Dune Archers, Mounted Dune Archers.
Exceptional: Wind Witches.
These are all pretty high because Gerudo are all drafted from birth. Don't know about Bronze Knuckles.

Goron:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Peasant Militia: Goron Guardians, Goron Berzerkers, Goron Miners
Average: Tribal Monks
Superior: Bomb Throwers, Fire Warriors
Elite: Ruby Guards
They're lower because Gorons lack professional training, they should get big racial boni to compensate, anyways.

Zora:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Elite: Zora Infantry, Zora Blademasters, Zora Mages, Zora Healers, Zora Infiltrators
Exceptional: Shock Troopers, Sapphire Wardens.
Since the training level is very high.

By the way, do you still have the RC2.0 files? Or did you lose them as well?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Bronze Knuckle



Infused with spirits of long dead male Gerudo, Bronze Knuckles serve as powerful tank units that can cut a swath through enemy ranks. They are slow but powerful for their size.

I say you don't spend the time and magic to bring just anyone back from the dead Full Metal Alchemist style so they are most likely "Exceptional" or are least "Elite". Also note that the armour is them and they are dead so they would be more capable of moving in it then a living warrior and they would not tire (they may not even fear death!) . Also for the sake of balance let us say that it is bronze covered iron or magic bronze as pure (normal) bronze would be very weak vs steel or iron.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Iron Knuckle



Animated by the souls of notable male Gerudo warriors of the distant past, Iron Knuckles serve as powerful tank units that can cut a swath through enemy ranks. They are slow but powerful for their size.

these have to be "Exceptional"

[Apani]

Yeah, funny thing: According to my researches bronze is actually slightly harder (and heavier) than Iron. So, no need to worry.

Anyways, I received some new RC 2.0 animations (like Slow_Halberdier) from k/t, but I don't know how to add them to the already existing ones. I think I need the unpacked HTW animations, first.

Another thing: what kind of bows are the Gerudo's? RC 2.0 gives four possible typologies: short bow, war bow, longbow and composite bow.

[Sir Aroun]

Yeah, funny thing: According to my researches bronze is actually slightly harder (and heavier) than Iron. So, no need to worry.

Anyways, I received some new RC 2.0 animations (like Slow_Halberdier) from k/t, but I don't know how to add them to the already existing ones. I think I need the unpacked HTW animations, first.

Another thing: what kind of bows are the Gerudo's? RC 2.0 gives four possible typologies: short bow, war bow, longbow and composite bow.

Most likely the Composite Bow as it is made from horn, wood, and sinew laminated together, is bad in wet climate, has very good range/power for its size, and is can be keep strung on the march. All and all sounds like the perfect bow for a low wood, dry climate, desert people.
also it does look like one:

[Apani]

Alright, I'll keep that for them. I still wonder what a war bow is.

I've tested Dune Archers' stopping power (7 damage, 0.026 accuracy) against a unit of Ruby Guards (8 armour, 13 shield); when the Gorons reached the Gerudo, those had already fired all of their 30 arrows, and killed 40 of the 82 Gorons. The volley with the highest kill ratio has been the second to last one, with five Gorons dead. Most of the arrow showers killed from 0 to 2, with a total average of 0.75 kills per volley. Do you think it's fine?

[Sir Aroun]

Alright, I'll keep that for them. I still wonder what a war bow is.

I've tested Dune Archers' stopping power (7 damage, 0.026 accuracy) against a unit of Ruby Guards (8 armour, 13 shield); when the Gorons reached the Gerudo, those had already fired all of their 30 arrows, and killed 40 of the 82 Gorons. The volley with the highest kill ratio has been the second to last one, with five Gorons dead. Most of the arrow showers killed from 0 to 2, with a total average of 0.75 kills per volley. Do you think it's fine?

I don't know how good 0.026 accuracy is but seeing as they are suppose to be the best archers in the game I think that is about right. could you test it on gohma, darknut Initiates and basic hyrule troops as this would be more accurate test of the units they would normally fight.

[Apani]

They hit pretty much everything, althought they make some miss on very long range.

Actually, according to my current algorithm, their accuracy should have been 0.013, but I might decrease it a little since I risk making every missile unit too accurate (althought it is still lower than Archer Accuracy Submod's highest value, 0.008).

Also, testing it on any units I haven't balanced yet is rather pointless. But I'll see what it does to the fews I've already redone.

[Apani]

I've been learning the basics for models edits and I've come up with a fix for Labrynnian Pathfinders, then I gave scimitars to Dune Archers. Next thing I tried to add shields to 1H Hylian infantry:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Town Guards seem to be doing perfectly fine with their new Tower Shields, but Swordsmen Recruits have the wrong shield textures: could somebody help me with this?

[Sir Aroun]

I've been learning the basics for models edits and I've come up with a fix for Labrynnian Pathfinders, then I gave scimitars to Dune Archers. Next thing I tried to add shields to 1H Hylian infantry:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Town Guards seem to be doing perfectly fine with their new Tower Shields, but Swordsmen Recruits have the wrong shield textures: could somebody help me with this?

Aren't town guards suppose to be two handed spearmen? Also if your adding shield to units can you give the conscripts some, it ever made much seance to me that they can arm them all with swords but not even give them a plank of wood with a handle.

[HD.Mordecai]

@Apani
Wow these shields are cool! But in the Zelda games, guards are only seem using lance, only hyrule knights have shields.

@Sir Aroun
If Conscripts got shields they will became just like the Ordonian Militiamen, it's better if they stay like that.

[Sir Aroun]

@Apani
Wow these shields are cool! But in the Zelda games, guards are only seem using lance, only hyrule knights have shields.

@Sir Aroun
If Conscripts got shields they will became just like the Ordonian Militiamen, it's better if they stay like that.

Why would they have be just like Ordonian Militiamen to have shields? (anyway conscripts don't wear armour, Militiamen do [even if if does not look like it])

When they could have coralmold kite shields (fits the conscript idea nicely):

[Jakeford]

I don't think the town guard should have big medal shields because if you give them that they basicly have the same gear as castle guards and the only thing making castle guards better would be there training.