THP's Unit Balance thread

[Apani]

Have you seen the RC 2.0 for TATW text file? Right now I'm trying to come up with a HTW version of the same style.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Yep, I have seen it.

2.0 is a good base from which to start.

[Apani]

Here, as promised:

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Looks good so far. We'll just have to see how it works as we readjust unit stats.

[Apani]

One doubt: Could the Zora Golden Armour allow them to be more agile, and therefore still perform somewhat well, or it just encumbers them?
I read that Gold is heavier than Iron, so I think I'll make it give +3 Heat Penalty (1 Higher than Bronze) instead of -2, whilst I still don't know if I should retain the -15 Attack Delay and the Lightness bonus.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

One doubt: Could the Zora Golden Armour allow them to be more agile, and therefore still perform somewhat well, or it just encumbers them?
I read that Gold is heavier than Iron, so I think I'll make it give +3 Heat Penalty (1 Higher than Bronze) instead of -2, whilst I still don't know if I should retain the -15 Attack Delay and the Lightness bonus.

Well, isn't their armor Coralmold, not gold? I know it's gold in color, but I could've sworn that the armor was coralmold.

Zora armor is just made to look pretty, not so much for protection or movement.

[Apani]

From this Thread:

4. Zora
- Zora soldiers are selected at birth and are all professionally trained, usually much harsher then any other faction. As such they have the best professional training and discipline.
- Zora armor is made of Gold, which is softer then more practical iron, and Coralmold, which is a rubbery and probably as thick as leather. Their weapon are more ornamental then practical
- Zora are braver then anyone else and would only retreat if defeat is certain.

I guess clothing like the one Infiltrators wear is Coralmold, while the Infantry Outfit is pure gold. And okay, no positive side whatsoever from gold armour, then.

[Sir Aroun]

From this Thread:


I guess clothing like the one Infiltrators wear is Coralmold, while the Infantry Outfit is pure gold. And okay, no positive side whatsoever from gold armour, then.

More likely it is gold plated Coralmold. many metal armours through out history had leather of cloth backings.

[Jakeford]

I imagined Zora armor to be bronze, not gold. The Zora troops look a lot more bronze then gold. Check a unit that has gold armor on like Triforce vanguard, and then look at Zora infantry.

[Apani]

I guess only Neph can answer this for sure... However, Zora Infantry's description says they wield a golden spear, and said spear's colour looks identical to their armor's. And by the way, Labrynnian are the ones armored in Bronze. I gave Bronze a +1 Armor Bonus and a +1 Heat Penalty, because it's harder and heavier, whereas Gold is -4 and +3, but I was thinking about using :1.5 and X2.5 as modifiers.
Sir Aroun: Are you saying their armour is a Brigandine Armor made of Coralmold and Gold?

Here is my attempt at Zora soldiers:

Zora Infantry

Zora Infantry (Elite, Spearmen, Professional) Numbers: 80 Mass: 1.4625 (Partial Plate 0.85, Elite 0.125, Polearm X1.5) Formation: 1.0, 1.0, 2.0, 2.0 Health: 1, 2 Attributes: hide_forest, can_withdraw, can_swim Move Speed: 0.9 Slow Health: 1, 2 Attack: 10, 6 (Voulge 6, 5; Heavy 1; Quality 1; Elite 2, 1) X-Radius: 0.55 (Voulge 0.5, Heavy 0.05) Attack Type: Slashing Mount Effect: Horse +6 Attack Delay: 120 (Voulge 105, Heavy 15, Ornamental 15, Elite -30, Partial Plate 15) Attributes: Armour Piercing Defense: 14 Armor: 9 (Partial Plate 12, Golden -4, Quality 1) Defense: 5 (Voulge 4, Heavy -1, Elite 2) Heat Penalty: 14 (Voulge 3, Ornamental 1, Elite -2, Partial Plate 9, Golden 3) Morale: 17 (Elite 14, Highly Trained 1, Zora 2) Discipline: Disciplined Training: Highly Trained Terrain Modifiers: -1, -3, 0, -6 (N. Italy Climate, Heavy, 2H, Amphibious Penalty)

Anyways, do you think they should count as phalanx or not?

[Saria's Vanguard]

They seem like the type to use phalanx, I would give them it

[Apani]

It's probably more elegant than a barbaric shiltrom anyways, but maybe their spears are a little too short for a phalanx.

I've tried to come up with some stats for the Gerudo:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Marauders
Superior, Infantry, Light, Warrior, Light Sword Cutting, Unarmored
Numbers: 48
Mass: 0.7
Formation: 1.2, 1.0, 2.4, 2.0
Health: 1, 2
Attributes:
Attack: 7, 3 (LS 4, 2, 1HMNS 1, S 1, 1, C 1) Slashing
Delay: 0 (LS 30, 1HMNS -15, S -15, G -15, C 15)
Defense: Skill 9 (LS 4, S 2, A 3)
Heat: -3 (S -1, G -2)
Movement: 1.1 Fast
Morale: 12 (S 12, HT 1, W -1)
Discipline: Normal
Training: Highly Trained
Terrain: 0, 2, 1, -2 Light
Cost:
Upkeep:

Glaive Grunts
Superior, Infantry, Light, Professional, Glaive, Helmet & Pauldrons
Numbers: 80
Mass: 1.05 (0.7 X 1.5)
Formation: 1.0, 1.0, 2.0, 2.0
Health: 1, 2
Attributes:
Attack: 8, 6 (G 7, 5, S 1, 1) 0.5 x-radius, AP, ME +4, Slashing
Delay: 90 (G 120, S -15, G -15)
Defense: Armor 1 (HP 1) Skill 9 (G 4, S 2, A 3)
Heat: 2 (G 3, S -1, HP 2, G -2)
Movement: 1.1 Fast
Morale: 13 (S 12, HT 1)
Discipline: Disciplined
Training: Highly Trained
Terrain: 0, 2, 2, -2 Light
Cost:
Upkeep:

As you can see, I did not count Glaives as spears, althought they still get a good bonus against cavalry. I removed it from Zoras as well, since their "spears" are more like Pole Cleavers. I've also decided to give +1 Armor and +2 Heat from the combination of a leather helmet and pauldrons (alone they would have given +1 Def and +1 Heat). Probably, at the same time armour outfits with uncovered spots will receives penalties.

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Perhaps -4 is a bit much for a gold decrease?

I guess we won't know until we test them out.

[Apani]

As it seems, Zora Infantry gets beaten by Glaive Grunts in a prolonged fight, I've also changed their armor from breastplate to Partial Plate and changed the Gold modifier to a :4 (PP 11, E 1, G :4 = 3), so they lost every bonus from lightness while still retaining an horrible armour (which was 2 before). But really, I think gold should be horrible for armour, maybe even worse than leather (Which, by the way, gives 2 Armor)

Another thing that bugs is that I can't change the movement animation (Halberdier -> Slow Halberdier) without the model getting messed up.

Here is my attempt at Goron Guardians:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Goron Guardians
Militia, Infantry, Light, Village Militia, Goron Fist
Numbers: 40
Mass: 1.25
Formation: 1.8, 1.4, 3.6, 2.8
Health: 2, 2
Attributes:
Attack: 6, 3 (GF 4, 3, M -1, -1, G 3, 1) 0.45 x-radius, AP
Delay: 90 (GF 60, M 15, G 15)
Defense: Armor 3 Skill 4 (GF 1, M -1, A 3, G 1)
Heat: 0 (GF 1, M 1)
Movement: 0.8 Fast
Morale: 5 (M 7, U -1, M -1)
Discipline: Low
Training: Untrained
Terrain: 1, 1, 1, -7 Light
Upkeep:
Cost:

As you can see, they're worse than Gerudo and Zora units in every aspect, and in fact 1VS1 they lost pretty easily. But hey, those are just big guys with a leather tummy and a rock back who like to punch people in the face; alone they stand no chance to professionals, but I managed to overpower a platoon of Zora Infantry with two. Considering that Goron Guardians have half the numbers of Zora Infantry, that they are Militians and that they are going to cost notably less, I can safely say the situation is balanced.

Anyways, I've come up with two possible values for Goron Fists:

Stronger: Attack 6; Charge 5; Defense 4; Attack Delay 90; 0.5 x-radius, AP
Weaker: Attack 4; Charge 3; Defense 1; Attack Delay 60; 0.45 x-radius, AP

The first has the value of a dual wield 1H Heavy War Hammer, the second is a Heavy 2H War Hammer.
Right now I'm using the Weaker and Guardians do pretty bad, but they didn't improve much with the Stronger either. Anyways, what do you think I should use?

[Sir Aroun]

As it seems, Zora Infantry gets beaten by Glaive Grunts in a prolonged fight, I've also changed their armor from breastplate to Partial Plate and changed the Gold modifier to a :4 (PP 11, E 1, G :4 = 3), so they lost every bonus from lightness while still retaining an horrible armour (which was 2 before). But really, I think gold should be horrible for armour, maybe even worse than leather (Which, by the way, gives 2 Armor)

Another thing that bugs is that I can't change the movement animation (Halberdier -> Slow Halberdier) without the model getting messed up.

Here is my attempt at Goron Guardians:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Goron Guardians
Militia, Infantry, Light, Village Militia, Goron Fist
Numbers: 40
Mass: 1.25
Formation: 1.8, 1.4, 3.6, 2.8
Health: 2, 2
Attributes:
Attack: 6, 3 (GF 4, 3, M -1, -1, G 3, 1) 0.45 x-radius, AP
Delay: 90 (GF 60, M 15, G 15)
Defense: Armor 3 Skill 4 (GF 1, M -1, A 3, G 1)
Heat: 0 (GF 1, M 1)
Movement: 0.8 Fast
Morale: 5 (M 7, U -1, M -1)
Discipline: Low
Training: Untrained
Terrain: 1, 1, 1, -7 Light
Upkeep:
Cost:

As you can see, they're worse than Gerudo and Zora units in every aspect, and in fact 1VS1 they lost pretty easily. But hey, those are just big guys with a leather tummy and a rock back who like to punch people in the face; alone they stand no chance to professionals, but I managed to overpower a platoon of Zora Infantry with two. Considering that Goron Guardians have half the numbers of Zora Infantry, that they are Militians and that they are going to cost notably less, I can safely say the situation is balanced.

Anyways, I've come up with two possible values for Goron Fists:

Stronger: Attack 6; Charge 5; Defense 4; Attack Delay 90; 0.5 x-radius, AP
Weaker: Attack 4; Charge 3; Defense 1; Attack Delay 60; 0.45 x-radius, AP

The first has the value of a dual wield 1H Heavy War Hammer, the second is a Heavy 2H War Hammer.
Right now I'm using the Weaker and Guardians do pretty bad, but they didn't improve much with the Stronger either. Anyways, what do you think I should use?

Well keep this in mind, they are made of rock, where did you get the leather tummy thing from anyway?

[Sir Aroun]

Ice Archers look like great Anti-Charge units, but how hard are they to get?

[Apani]

From the start of this thread:

3. Gorons
- All Gorons know how to fight to some degree, though they only form armies in times of need. I would say they are more so brawlers then skilled at fighting. They'd rather just punch someone in the face then gracefully use a weapon so their training is not very skilled.
.- Goron's backs are mostly made of rock, so hitting them with a sword is like hitting a stone: largely ineffective. Their only real weakspots are their faces and their bellies, which probably would be the equivalent to leather.

In combat, it's not very helpful to have stone backs if your front is leather, althought I'll add some defense skill and shield bonus for their rocky arms. Nevertheless Goron Guardians likely went from overpowered to underpowered, if you consider them frontline unit that is.

[Sir Aroun]

From the start of this thread:

In combat, it's not very helpful to have stone backs if your front is leather, althought I'll add some defense skill and shield bonus for their rocky arms. Nevertheless Goron Guardians likely went from overpowered to underpowered, if you consider them frontline unit that is.

cool thanks, BTW the Zora are using gold PLATED Coralmold (which is a cross between rubber and leather). So it be as protective as leather but more form fitting and resident to fire.

[Cameron Shutters]

Woudn't it make more sense to decrease the agility (defense skill points) rather than the armor? Gorons aren't supposed to be nimble. Unless of course you already did that; this is my first time checking this thread out.

Also belly and face are not the entire front, I mean there's chest, legs, arms, groin... But then again these are Gorons and their bellies are huge.

But really, I think gold should be horrible for armour, maybe even worse than leather (Which, by the way, gives 2 Armor)

As far as realism goes, this is probably correct. Gold is pretty much the worst thing possible to use as armor. It's something that really bugs me about the Zora in general.

[Sir Aroun]

Woudn't it make more sense to decrease the agility (defense skill points) rather than the armor? Gorons aren't supposed to be nimble. Unless of course you already did that; this is my first time checking this thread out.

Also belly and face are not the entire front, I mean there's chest, legs, arms, groin... But then again these are Gorons and their bellies are huge.

As far as realism goes, this is probably correct. Gold is pretty much the worst thing possible to use as armor. It's something that really bugs me about the Zora in general.

It is NOT PURE GOLD, from what I read it is GOLD PLATED CORALMOLD! (which is like rubber crossed with leather).