Freedom of Religion in Arizona?

[xcorps]

http://www.examiner.com/article/past...me-bible-study

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/chri...bible-studies/

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/07/11...-defies-logic/

An Arizone man has been sentenced to jail and a pretty damn big fine for having Bible studies in the privacy of his own home.

It seems that it's ok to have a party in your home, but if you want to read the Bible you have to get a permit. I wonder if the city would fine and arrest someone for gathering up a group of Marxists having a go at the Communist Manifesto?

Phoenix City Prosecutor Vicki Hall as saying, "It came down to zoning and proper permitting. Anytime you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does, we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire."

Interesting. So if you have a social gathering..like a wedding, a retirement party, or a bah mizvaht..you don't need safe exits. Only if people are reading the Bible, because a domicile where people read the Bible is no longer a domicile, but a church, and churches must be regulated.

[The excited one]

well thats sounds stupid just because you are having a party with religious fanatics holding a bible study at home, but if you host them publicly then that guy deserves to be fined.

just saying

[John I Tzimisces]

I knew this would happen in a place like the liberal stronghold of Arizona.

[The excited one]

I knew this would happen in a place like the liberal stronghold of Arizona.

can you define liberal? i mean seriously it has lots of meanings and also i m not american thats why

p.s i thought the so called "liberals" in america are as conservative as the Australian Liberal party ahhh well

[John I Tzimisces]

can you define liberal? i mean seriously it has lots of meanings and also i m not american thats why

p.s i thought the so called "liberals" in america are as conservative as the Australian Liberal party ahhh well

...Sarcasm. it was sarcasm.

I don't hold the opinion that the OP is one of these people, but there are a lot of people in this country that can't distinguish between horrific religious persecution and the government being a busy-body (or, indeed, the very existence of zoning regulations), which is pretty easily observed by the references to states like Iran and invocation of the right of assembly in order to drum up a nonexistent controversy.

Talk about minimizing the suffering of people who are actually persecuted.

[B. W.]

can you define liberal? i mean seriously it has lots of meanings and also i m not american thats why

p.s i thought the so called "liberals" in america are as conservative as the Australian Liberal party ahhh well

liberal/progressive/democrat/establishment republican(rhino)=BIG government=higher taxes=more government

[motiv-8]

liberal/progressive/democrat/establishment republican(rhino)=BIG government=higher taxes=more government

That's it? Man, politics have gotten amazingly simplified in the last second since I read that.

[Psychonaut]

Arizona of all places? I could have sworn that was a more conservative Christian state...

[John I Tzimisces]

Just for and giggles I'm going to post the first two comments on the first linked news article about the rampant persecution of Christians in the United States as exemplified by this story.

Our Federal Reserve Bank is owned by eight Jewish banking families.
1. Rothschilds of London and Berlin
2. Lazard Brothers of Paris
3. Israel Moses Seaf of Italy
4. Kuhn, Loeb & Co. of Germany and New York
5. Warburg & Company of Hamburg, Germany
6. Lehman Brothers of New York
7. Goldman, Sachs of New York
8. Rockefeller Brothers of New York
Both sides of World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam etc., were financed by these banking families
The Bolshevik Revolution (communist) from 1917 to the Stalin’s end, there were 102 MILLION Christians killed in the holocaust no one speaks of.
According to the data furnished by the Soviet press, out of 556 important
functionaries of the Bolshevik State. . . there were in 1918-1919, 17 Russians, 2
Ukrainians, 11 Armenians, 35 Letts, 15 Germans, 1 Hungarian, 10 Georgians, 3
Poles, 3 Finns, 1 Karaim, 457 Jews.
Kuhn, Loeb & Jacob Schiff Co. of New York sent $20 MILLION in gold ALONG WITH
"Leon Trotsky (Bornstein) who arrived from the United States, followed by over 300 Jews from the East End of New York and joined up with the Bolshevik Party" on a sealed train which also Lenin. Hitler’s rise to power in the 30’s was also financed by these bankers and Prescott Bush father & grandfather of both Bush presidents. was right in the middle of it.

I often think of this quote, America is on a parrallel course with NAZI Germany!:

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller - NAZI GERMANY!

Pastor Michael Salman arrested, Crime - having bible study in his home! NAZI AMERICA - July 6, 2012!

But, gasp, here's a sensible one!

I am a Born again Christian but disagree with your assertion that this is purely about religious persecution. All cities have zoning ordnances. Churches are not exempt from the law. In fact the bible tells us that we are to respect local authority unless it flies in the face of God. In my opinion this pastor, willfully circumvented the law from the beginning, and is using the religious persecution argument to get away with it. Having said that, I don't think throwing him in jail is warranted.

END OF THREAD

[xcorps]

The issue is clear, if you read more than the comments after the articles.

END OF THREAD

Because somebody in a comment said that churches aren't exempt from zoning laws? Why comment if you can't put more in thought than regurgitating someone else's stupidity?
This isn't about a church. It's about the city redefining what a church is and then imposing zoning laws on a home.

well thats sounds stupid just because you are having a party with religious fanatics holding a bible study at home, but if you host them publicly then that guy deserves to be fined.

just saying

What are you saying? That a person holding a social gathering in his own home to discuss religious dogma and text deserves to be fined?

[The excited one]

What are you saying? That a person holding a social gathering in his own home to discuss religious dogma and text deserves to be fined?

i was saying that was stupid for fining people for holding some gathering (even though its stupid)

[Squiggle]

http://www.examiner.com/article/past...me-bible-study

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/chri...bible-studies/

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2012/07/11...-defies-logic/

An Arizone man has been sentenced to jail and a pretty damn big fine for having Bible studies in the privacy of his own home.

It seems that it's ok to have a party in your home, but if you want to read the Bible you have to get a permit. I wonder if the city would fine and arrest someone for gathering up a group of Marxists having a go at the Communist Manifesto?



Interesting. So if you have a social gathering..like a wedding, a retirement party, or a bah mizvaht..you don't need safe exits. Only if people are reading the Bible, because a domicile where people read the Bible is no longer a domicile, but a church, and churches must be regulated.

Government eventually tramples everything if its not rigidly restrained. The Government isnt restrained at all. Things are only going to get worse unless something big happens.

[John I Tzimisces]

It's not a freedom of religion issue. It's a stupid zoning law and the willful circumvention of said stupid zoning laws issue.

[Squiggle]

It's not a freedom of religion issue. It's a stupid zoning law and the willful circumvention of said stupid zoning laws issue.

Its his ing house, its a ridiculous intrusion into the harmless and voluntary congregation of people on private property. Whatever the moronic idea behind it, its EFFECT infringes on freedom of religion, association, private property, privacy, and the list goes on and on.

[xcorps]

It's not a freedom of religion issue. It's a stupid zoning law and the willful circumvention of said stupid zoning laws issue.

Of course it's a freedom of religion issue. Otherwise ALL social gatherings would be required to meet with zoning laws, including backyard BBQ. The man in this story was singled out and attacked by the city. If that isn't clear, reread the timeline. It doesn't matter if the city wants to infringe on religious freedom or not, that's what they did.

[justicar5]

Of course it's a freedom of religion issue. Otherwise ALL social gatherings would be required to meet with zoning laws, including backyard BBQ. The man in this story was singled out and attacked by the city. If that isn't clear, reread the timeline. It doesn't matter if the city wants to infringe on religious freedom or not, that's what they did.

The important part of the story is the repeatedly and regularly part (and also the whole 'building a 4200 square ft church in his back yard with out planning permission) a wedding or a bar mitsvah isn't a regular occurrence. Example: If this guy was regularly having parties, had built a large building to have them in [with out planning permission] and was annoying the hell out of the neighbours by doing the above, had been told to cease doing so, yet continued for years...would you be defending him?

But then Salman announced that he was planning to build a church right there in his backyard. He talked about not just Sunday services, but weeknight Bible studies, a workout room and basketball court, even a Christian day care center.

The plans generated lots of talk in the neighborhood. These houses aren't cheap — Salman paid $707,000, according to county records — and everyone was used to a certain bucolic feeling. Nobody liked the idea of church basketball games, loud Christian pop music, and a long line of cars coming in and out.

That doesn't sound like a few people coming round for a quiet study session.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-...t-buying-it/2/

[Vizvii]

The important part of the story is the repeatedly and regularly part (and also the whole 'building a 4200 square ft church in his back yard with out planning permission) a wedding or a bar mitsvah isn't a regular occurrence. Example: If this guy was regularly having parties, had built a large building to have them in [with out planning permission] and was annoying the hell out of the neighbours by doing the above, had been told to cease doing so, yet continued for years...would you be defending him?

Nobody's defending him as an individual (the story undoubtedly makes him seem... obnoxious, at least ). What I and other posters find unsettling is that this story comes dangerously close to a breach of the freedom of assembly.

[justicar5]

Nobody's defending him as an individual (the story undoubtedly makes him seem... obnoxious, at least ). What I and other posters find unsettling is that this story comes dangerously close to a breach of the freedom of assembly.

But then he is abusing that freedom, to whit he is effectively holding loud parties every single night. You can't do that in a residential area, the other people in the street have rights to, and the right to a decent night sleep once in a while has to count for something. He had been told, 5 years ago not to continue, that he didn't have the permits to have a church there, that he was annoying his neighbours, but he continued...for 5 more years!

The question is whether zoning laws are restricting this man's and other's freedom of religion.

Salman puts the issue correctly here:

"It's our property. Why should people be able to tell us what we can and can't do? I don't tell them they can't have horses. How can they tell me I can't have a Christian congregation?"

The weight of government regulation shouldn't be allowed to impede the scant few freedoms (if any) left in the constitution.

So what are his neighbours rights? Do they have to simply put up with (what the article linked makes clear) are nightly gatherings, with loud music, the street full of cars etc.. where are their rights in your view?

[Facupay]

There's no persecution, everyone has to follow the law and no one gets a special treatment. If the guy wanted to host big bible study groups he should have gotten the required permits before doing so. If I can do whatever I want inside my house without any regulations then everyone can set up a casino/brothel/whatever conservatives hate in their homes or build unsafe constructions which are a danger to the people near by.

Edit1: Reading the comments, one of the guys put a link to a local newspaper and it says some pretty interesting things about the "harmless biblical study group"

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-...n-t-buying-it/

There's were the private, small and discreet study group was being held:


I knew Fox was a biased source but not THAT biased.

Edit2: Theblaze's comment section is really scary, I can't belive the people commenting there are not pretending to be lunatics.

[Squiggle]

There's no persecution, everyone has to follow the law and no one gets a special treatment. If the guy wanted to host big bible study groups he should have gotten the required permits before doing so.

Do you get permits everytime you invite some friends over? If you do you've clearly been reduced to some pathetic and obsequious slave.

If I can do whatever I want inside my house without any regulations then everyone can set up a casino/brothel/whatever

Yep. Its either fine people for having too many guests or you can set fire to your house and strap explosives to it or whatever absurd your going to come up with.

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-...n-t-buying-it/

There's were the private, small and discreet study group was being held:


I knew Fox was a biased source but not THAT biased.

Edit2: Theblaze's comment section is really scary, I can't belive the people commenting there are not pretending.

Are they fining him for the construction of, essentially, a shed, or are they fining him for having too many people at his house? Its the latter. The former is not relevant.