New foreign trade system (user suggestion)

[Theseus1234]

If CA implements this I'll be an extremely happy camper. The added strategy and relevant historical importance are too great to ignore. +Rep!

[HusKatten]

Thanks guys, i think the mail will be ready soon any further improving ideas are still welcome. Or use your fantasy to describe possible scenarios this festure Can create!

if the squalor penalty is added when holding a Route Stop, then one can use a spy to destroy the citys sanitation and baths. Then the city, if not repaired, may decay in plague.

[Ichon]

Thanks guys, i think the mail will be ready soon any further improving ideas are still welcome. Or use your fantasy to describe possible scenarios this festure Can create!

if the squalor penalty is added when holding a Route Stop, then one can use a spy to destroy the citys sanitation and baths. Then the city, if not repaired, may decay in plague.

The main part I'd want to think through more is how the trade stops improve surrounding areas and specifically how city is rated on being the most 'developed' city. Population, trade infrastructure, distance to other ports, prestige of the owning faction, etc

[HusKatten]

The main part I'd want to think through more is how the trade stops improve surrounding areas and specifically how city is rated on being the most 'developed' city. Population, trade infrastructure, distance to other ports, prestige of the owning faction, etc

Since this feature is probably going to be non-optional if implemented, we need to keep in mind that it should fit with the playstyle of the mass. Therefore we can't make this feature to in-depth and not to decisive in terms of how the game plays out. But clearly this feature is not 100% finished and a discussion of its details remains.

The most developed city in a region is the city that acquires the Route Stop. So what defines a well developed city. I think the main thing to make clear is that a city has a large amount of buildings (Hopefully we'll see a return of the R1:TW and M2:TW city building design) and all of these buildings are not important for trade. There are three types of building categories as I see it, these are:
Military buildings -Buildings thats allows recruitment and improvement of soldiers and structures such as Barracks, Blacksmiths, Walls etc...
Stability Buildings -Buildings that stabilizes your citys well-being such as Temples, baths, hippodromes, Courthouses etc...
Economic Buildings -Buldings that improve your trade and production such as Roads, Farms, Caravan stops, Ports, Marketplace

Two additional building categories which are not as defined might be:
Unique buildings - Buildings that grants bonuses and are unique to a city or location such as The Great Lighthouse, Circus Maximus, Hanging Gardens etc...
Education buildings - Buildings that allow better training and traits for agents and generals such as Libraries, Military school, Oratory school

These five categories makes their own definition of a well developed city. A city that has alot of military buildings is indeed a well developed city. But that city is developed in another way than a city that has alot of economic buildings. The distinguishment of these different buildings categories is therefore of high importance. The cities that are well developed in terms of economic buildings are the cities that has the greatest chance of acquiring a Route Stop. It might therefore be a good thing to give each building a value that increases the chance of acquiring a Route Stop. The Economic buildings has the bigger value, and the other categories might also be given a lower value.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Lets say City 1 has the following buildings: (The number that follows the upgrade level is that buildings economical value)
Port (lvl 3) +75
Merchant port (lvl 4) +100
Marketplace (lvl 2) +50
Roads (lvl 2) +50
Barracks (lvl 1) +5
Stable (lvl 1) +5
Total Economic value: 285

And City 2 has the following buildings:
Port (lvl 3) +75
Merchant port (lvl 0) +0
Marketplace (lvl 1) +25
Roads (lvl 2) +50
Barracks (lvl 3) +15
Stable (lvl 3) +15
Total Economic value: 180

The two cities are well developed on different areas, City 2 is a military focused city while City 1 is more economical oriented. Therefore City 1 has a better chance than City 2 to acquire the Route Stop. In the extreme late game when multiple cities within the same region has built all buildings there is to build, the competition has reached its peak. In this chase it all comes down to claim the Route Stop with Diplomacy, war, sabotage and so on.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Whats your thoughts? This kind of system is logic, is easy to understand and is automatic.

You also bring up another question Ichon, how is does the Route Stop affect nearby cities? I try to answer that later. Everyone is welcome to join in and give their version of how it could work.

[Orlorin]

Since this feature is probably going to be non-optional if implemented, we need to keep in mind that it should fit with the playstyle of the mass. Therefore we can't make this feature to in-depth and not to decisive in terms of how the game plays out. But clearly this feature is not 100% finished and a discussion of its details remains.

The most developed city in a region is the city that acquires the Route Stop. So what defines a well developed city. I think the main thing to make clear is that a city has a large amount of buildings (Hopefully we'll see a return of the R1:TW and M2:TW city building design) and all of these buildings are not important for trade. There are three types of building categories as I see it, these are:
Military buildings -Buildings thats allows recruitment and improvement of soldiers and structures such as Barracks, Blacksmiths, Walls etc...
Stability Buildings -Buildings that stabilizes your citys well-being such as Temples, baths, hippodromes, Courthouses etc...
Economic Buildings -Buldings that improve your trade and production such as Roads, Farms, Caravan stops, Ports, Marketplace

Two additional building categories which are not as defined might be:
Unique buildings - Buildings that grants bonuses and are unique to a city or location such as The Great Lighthouse, Circus Maximus, Hanging Gardens etc...
Education buildings - Buildings that allow better training and traits for agents and generals such as Libraries, Military school, Oratory school

These five categories makes their own definition of a well developed city. A city that has alot of military buildings is indeed a well developed city. But that city is developed in another way than a city that has alot of economic buildings. The distinguishment of these different buildings categories is therefore of high importance. The cities that are well developed in terms of economic buildings are the cities that has the greatest chance of acquiring a Route Stop. It might therefore be a good thing to give each building a value that increases the chance of acquiring a Route Stop. The Economic buildings has the bigger value, and the other categories might also be given a lower value.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Lets say City 1 has the following buildings: (The number that follows the upgrade level is that buildings economical value)
Port (lvl 3) +75
Merchant port (lvl 4) +100
Marketplace (lvl 2) +50
Roads (lvl 2) +50
Barracks (lvl 1) +5
Stable (lvl 1) +5
Total Economic value: 285

And City 2 has the following buildings:
Port (lvl 3) +75
Merchant port (lvl 0) +0
Marketplace (lvl 1) +25
Roads (lvl 2) +50
Barracks (lvl 3) +15
Stable (lvl 3) +15
Total Economic value: 180

The two cities are well developed on different areas, City 2 is a military focused city while City 1 is more economical oriented. Therefore City 1 has a better chance than City 2 to acquire the Route Stop. In the extreme late game when multiple cities within the same region has built all buildings there is to build, the competition has reached its peak. In this chase it all comes down to claim the Route Stop with Diplomacy, war, sabotage and so on.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Whats your thoughts? This kind of system is logic, is easy to understand and is automatic.

You also bring up another question Ichon, how is does the Route Stop affect nearby cities? I try to answer that later. Everyone is welcome to join in and give their version of how it could work.

As additional factor, could diplomacy with the supplier of the goods help that city. Say Tyre is the route Stop, and they make a deal with China or Parthia to stop suppling a rival whose city nearly the same level of developement.

Also, could local reasources make a difference. Athens became a trading power impart because their merchants at a reasource which was coveted (Olive Oil) and thus merchants were drawn to the city to get oil.

[HanSomPa]

Therefore we can't make this feature to in-depth and not to decisive in terms of how the game plays out. But clearly this feature is not 100% finished and a discussion of its details remains.

It'd be a lot better if it was possible to modify it into the game somehow, rather than have it in the original Rome II: Total War.

For one thing, you are completely right about the "general mass." The complexity of this "system" would definitely not be everyone's cup of tea. However, I think that if the engine is much more mod-friendly then you could implement it into the game as a mod. That would be definitely a lot more "convenient" for everyone.

I think in general this brings us back to the question of how mod-friendly the game will be. It's in everyone's interests for this to be as mod-friendly as possible. That way the hard core fanatics will be satisfied because they will have the option of "fixing" everything themselves, and the developers,publishers, shareholders can be happy as well. They can stick to faster development cycles and put as much crap into the game as they like(as long as it's not hard coded).

[Razor]

Food for thought. I think it's a great idea!

[Ichon]

Interesting idea on trade pacts... Could be something similar to what already have but with additional effects. Geographic factors is also good but I can't see how to portray it in a good way.

[Ichon]

I don't see how this is complex idea? It is very intuitive and simple at the core. The complexity would arise from how people and AI can attempt to gain control of a trade stop for their or an allies faction. Compare this to some of the new stuff CA has already said they are doing with Legions and addition of complex storylines and interactive dilemmas.

[HanSomPa]

I don't see how this is complex idea? It is very intuitive and simple at the core. The complexity would arise from how people and AI can attempt to gain control of a trade stop for their or an allies faction. Compare this to some of the new stuff CA has already said they are doing with Legions and addition of complex storylines and interactive dilemmas.

It is intuitive and it does make sense. However, I've had at least 14 years of education to help me understand this. Will everyone be able to understand this game? My friend played Shogun Total War when he was 14, and a lot of it was too complex for him to understand. I know many people who are younger than me by a few years. I can't guarantee that it's simple enough for them to understand.

You have to realize that the way this trade system will be implemented adds a lot more depth to this game.
If you want to be an efficient player, then you have to take into account the cities you choose to attack or not attack in order to get that trade bonus. Meanwhile, some players will be confused when random cities gain or lose that bonus.

[Ichon]

Would it be any more difficult to understand than losing trade along a trade route when enemy raids it or block the home port? If anything it would make more intuitive sense and be easier to understand AI motivations which CA has said is a goal for RTW2.

[HanSomPa]

Would it be any more difficult to understand than losing trade along a trade route when enemy raids it or block the home port? If anything it would make more intuitive sense and be easier to understand AI motivations which CA has said is a goal for RTW2.

AI rarely has proper motivation anyway... but no. I don't think so. It adds another layer of thought if you know what I mean.

For Example,

Fleet blockades City A, City A loses trade income because of that.

Now in case of the trade system.

Fleet blockades City A, City A loses trade income, Trade Hub Bonus. City B gains Trade Hub Bonus.

See what I mean? It adds more depth. Depth=complexity. Complexity means the game is harder to understand.

In other words, the learning curve becomes higher.

[Ichon]

AI rarely has proper motivation anyway... but no. I don't think so. It adds another layer of thought if you know what I mean.

For Example,

Fleet blockades City A, City A loses trade income because of that.

Now in case of the trade system.

Fleet blockades City A, City A loses trade income, Trade Hub Bonus. City B gains Trade Hub Bonus.

See what I mean? It adds more depth. Depth=complexity. Complexity means the game is harder to understand.

In other words, the learning curve becomes higher.

But most of that is hidden from player if they don't care to know. They are only told if it impacts one of their cities. If it is an AI city its not much different than that AI agreeing to a couple new trade pacts. Player is not informed of that and has to go to the diplomacy screen to learn about it. If a player gains a trade stop he is happy and it can be a goal player pursues or not but to gain and hold a trade stop has certain costs as well so its not like some free bonus so players could play very well without ever working to gain one specifically and just gain it coincidentally to pursing other goals.

[HanSomPa]

But most of that is hidden from player if they don't care to know. They are only told if it impacts one of their cities. If it is an AI city its not much different than that AI agreeing to a couple new trade pacts. Player is not informed of that and has to go to the diplomacy screen to learn about it. If a player gains a trade stop he is happy and it can be a goal player pursues or not but to gain and hold a trade stop has certain costs as well so its not like some free bonus so players could play very well without ever working to gain one specifically and just gain it coincidentally to pursing other goals.

You have a good point there. An uninformed player just wouldn't care about it probably. For the more advanced players the system is there to take advantage of. Good catch

[HusKatten]

Seems you found the correct answer in the end. The first TW game i played was Rome, i believe it was 4 years ago. By that time i was 16 years old and i figured out how the very simple upkeep function worked about 6 month after i first started to play. But i managed to keep my campaign going even though i wasn't aware of that upkeep even existed. When i later found out about it, it opened up a whole new world to me. And i believe that all features should work like this - Being able to play unaware of features, but when you figure them out, that opens up a whole new way of thinking. All new features are complex until you figure them out. And thats whats to great with this feature. You can play through a campaign without knowing anything about it, and still you can play a campaign that is totally centered around it.

I believe Ichon has pretty much the same knowledge about this feature that I have, so he's privileged to answer your questions.

I believe that we have agreed upon 'the definition of a well-developed city'. Now we'll move on to possible effects on the Stop Holders neighbors.

I'm not sure about how much more we could add to this without making it too decisive. Cities that either belongs to the Stop Holders faction or has trade rights with the faction that owns it will benefit from the Trade Route. That far it's all clear, It works just like the local trade routes in previous games. The question remains however what these benefits are. If we assume that the Foreign Trade Route Example (Trade from Arabian Sea to Mediterranean Sea) is the one that gets implemented then there where historical benefits and penalties.

Possible Benefits:
Exotic Animals -Tigers, Lions, Rhinos, Elephants, Monkeys and Parrots where shipped with the purpose to fight in the arena or to entertain. Owning a Route Stop, or trading with its owner, can have positive effects on happiness in the city.
Silk -Silk was a highly valuable resources that traveled along the Indo-Roman trade route. Providing income bonus.
Spice -Spice was a highly valuable resources that traveled along the Indo-Roman trade route. Providing income bonus.
Technology -Technology where exchanged through this trade route. Everything from architecture to arts. Owning a Route Stop, or trading with its owner, can speed up the tech-rate.
Slaves -Slaves where used all around Mediterranea to do the hard and dirty work in the cities, they where also recruited to join the army. Adding to the cities manpower.
Incense -Incense was gathered from the Arabian peninsula and was used in many rituals throughout the Mediterranean. Adding to the cities cultural conversion.
Gold -Simply adding to the cities income.
Ivory -From Africa and India ivory was transported. Used as decoration in many buildings. Adding to income or to the factions prestige.
Merchants and Immigration -Merchants and lucky-seekers ended up in these cities where wealth could be found. Jobs where everywhere to be found. Adding to agent and generals traits when handling trade, and gives a population increase.
Grain The Nile was a great grain producer and its production fed many cities in the Mediterranean region. Adding to food increase.


Possible Penalties:
Crowded streets and open gates -Resulting in espionage and opening of city gates during sieges in the city becomes easier.
Crowded city and foreign bacteria/viruses -Resulting in bad hygiene among the lower classes and a decent squalor increase.
Foreign culture influence -Many cultures mixes within the city and every culture should be getting a small percentage of conversion to the city.
Law and order -With wealth comes greed and thieves. The city needs to have a greater number or garrison units or have buildings to counter this effect.


These are some possible effects i could think of. The effects will have a stronger presence in the Stop Holder city. The cities with trade agreements will have a weaker presence of the effects. I'm not saying all of the above effects are to be included for the feature to work out. But they should be seen as examples. I do however see a simple outcome of this. A feature like this would still be fun if the only benefits would be income and population growth, and the only penalty would be squalor.

[Ichon]

Main benefits to a trade stop are;

1. income bonus to the trade city on all its local trade routes including income bonus to its trade partners. So in this way even if Numidia is not in a position to gain a trade stop city, if Carthage has the trade stop Numidia gains more income from the trade stop being in Carthage and it will be in Numidia players interests to oppose Carthage's competition. This also means if a rival city is a possible trade partner careful thought can be given to giving them trade as they receive a bonus but they might also be a significant market so not having them as a trade partner is costing money.

2. prestige/diplomacy bonus with trade partners which makes faction holding trade stop have slightly easier time negotiating with trade partners. the bonus should be balanced such that the penalty for being a rival city is just offset but the bonus of being a trade partner giving more weight to the choice above.

3. small population growth/income bonus. so similar to a structure that adds +8 income per turn a trade stop might add +16 income per turn if it is the undisputed leading city. If there are competing cities the bonus might be half until its rivals are vanquished or at least there is no competition.

Main costs of a trade stop are;

1. other factions demand more money for any actions as they perceive the trade stop holding faction as very rich. bribes, negotiations etc cost a bit more.

2. plagues spread easier as well as other cultures so cities holding a trade stop might require slightly more public order buildings to maintain population happiness.

3. finally the obvious one- competing factions controlling a rival city have diplomatic and negotiation penalty with the current faction controlling the trade stop.

[HusKatten]

Main benefits to a trade stop are;

1. income bonus to the trade city on all its local trade routes including income bonus to its trade partners. So in this way even if Numidia is not in a position to gain a trade stop city, if Carthage has the trade stop Numidia gains more income from the trade stop being in Carthage and it will be in Numidia players interests to oppose Carthage's competition. This also means if a rival city is a possible trade partner careful thought can be given to giving them trade as they receive a bonus but they might also be a significant market so not having them as a trade partner is costing money.

2. prestige/diplomacy bonus with trade partners which makes faction holding trade stop have slightly easier time negotiating with trade partners. the bonus should be balanced such that the penalty for being a rival city is just offset but the bonus of being a trade partner giving more weight to the choice above.

3. small population growth/income bonus. so similar to a structure that adds +8 income per turn a trade stop might add +16 income per turn if it is the undisputed leading city. If there are competing cities the bonus might be half until its rivals are vanquished or at least there is no competition.

Main costs of a trade stop are;

1. other factions demand more money for any actions as they perceive the trade stop holding faction as very rich. bribes, negotiations etc cost a bit more.

2. plagues spread easier as well as other cultures so cities holding a trade stop might require slightly more public order buildings to maintain population happiness.

3. finally the obvious one- competing factions controlling a rival city have diplomatic and negotiation penalty with the current faction controlling the trade stop.

Well put Ichon, I think that setup is a great candidate for this feature. Simple and logic, yet deep.

Expanding on the Natural Reasource Idea: In M2TW threre were a variety of goods that you could park a Merchant on. Why don't we reintroduce these (and more) resources, assigning value based on s/d. A City with a valueable and well developed reasource would attract trade as Merchants need not only to sell goods from far away, but buy goods to sell at their home ports. So if your city has lots of silver mines it would improve your standing. That way cities like Alexandria could use their large grain stores as leverage to expand trade income. Rome might gather tons of slaves from their conquest not only to develop their land, but to improve trade. These resources would become strategic objectives when trying to improve your cities, or deprive other nations of their advantages.

(Inland resources controlled by your faction would contribute to a city of your choosing.)

Good Idea. Don't know if it is totally relevant to the topic, but if you have an idea and want to make some kind of connection to this one, i think it's alright to discuss it.

[Orlorin]

Well put Ichon, I think that setup is a great candidate for this feature. Simple and logic, yet deep.



Good Idea. Don't know if it is totally relevant to the topic, but if you have an idea and want to make some kind of connection to this one, i think it's alright to discuss it.

I thought we were discussing how the trade route stop was determined beyond simply infrastructure. sry///

[Orlorin]

Expanding on the Natural Reasource Idea: In M2TW threre were a variety of goods that you could park a Merchant on. Why don't we reintroduce these (and more) resources, assigning value based on s/d. A City with a valueable and well developed reasource would attract trade as Merchants need not only to sell goods from far away, but buy goods to sell at their home ports. So if your city has lots of silver mines it would improve your standing. That way cities like Alexandria could use their large grain stores as leverage to expand trade income. Rome might gather tons of slaves from their conquest not only to develop their land, but to improve trade. These resources would become strategic objectives when trying to improve your cities, or deprive other nations of their advantages.

(Inland resources controlled by your faction would contribute to a city of your choosing.)

[HusKatten]

My bad Orlorin. And you never have to apologize in my threads if the merchants make an appearence they would probably work very well with increasing a cities standing with acquiring the Trade Route Stop. personally i wasnt a huge fan of how the merchant agents worked in M2, it was all about spAmming. Im all into a thread about merchant agents if you make One Now im the one who is off topic

though great idea we want ideas like yours to grow forth out of this one. Sorry if you felt i was rude <3