New foreign trade system (user suggestion)

[Eco]

Sounds nice! I hope they do it.

[Landil]

One of the biggest problems I can find in your system is the Mediterranean Trade route, which isn't really based on any particular luxury good, but rather on the collection of luxury goods from the other trade routes. It should not logically be able to operate on its own, but only as an extension of the other routes. So how do you think to justify its existence?

Also, are you going to add the Spice Route(s) or not? Because together with the Silk Route they (one coming from the Indian west-coast, the other from Southeast Asia) were the most valuable in terms of the wealth they generated.

Next, the Amber Route you depicted seems incorrect to me, it did not reach into Russia at all as far as I know, and it actually included Denmark, The Netherlands, and the region along the Rhone. Here is the route depicted as historically correct as I could make it within the limitations of your system:

Spoiler for map: 

Lastly, if you want to represent the Silk Route correctly for the period of 350-250 BC, you should have it start at Kashgar, which was its main staging point after the route had circumvented the Taklamakan Desert. It then went to Samarkand, then to Antiochia in Margiana (Merv), Ekbatana (Hamadan), Seleukeia and lastly Tyre (and historically also Antioch in later times). So I suggest making it 6 Emporia instead of 5.

[Adufka]

Very good idea..you should email this post to CA to make sure they will read this

[HusKatten]

If you want you can make the maps for the regions, Landil yours looks a bit better since i can only get a very low resolution picture of the Europa Barbarorum map. If you don't have time, would you mind sending a copy of your high res-picture?
E-mail: mattinmansson@live.se

I justify my mediterranean route by being a route which transports all kind of goods throughout the mediterranean. I'm not happy about that motivation and it causes issues with what you are getting bonuses from since there are no luxuries. Do you think we should keep on going with the motivation i had the first time? That the mediterranian route is a prolonged version of the Silk Road, which is historical accurate.

[Ichon]

I justify my mediterranean route by being a route which transports all kind of goods throughout the mediterranean. I'm not happy about that motivation and it causes issues with what you are getting bonuses from since there are no luxuries. Do you think we should keep on going with the motivation i had the first time? That the mediterranian route is a prolonged version of the Silk Road, which is historical accurate.

I imagined the Mediterranean route as the continuation of the other routes just joined to a single route, N Africa, Amber, Silk, Incense, Metals, etc.

That is also why some cities could have 2 routes where they are part of both as those cities did tend to be the richest. IE- Carthage having African and Mediterranean routes, Alexandria having Incense/Slave/Gold/Grain Nubia route and Mediterranean route, Levant cities being part of both routes, Colchis part of Silk and Black Sea/Mediterranean routes, etc.

The Celtic trade route, even though I know that the trade on rivers like the Meuse, Rhine, Rhone and Seine was very important, was mostly based on common goods rather than luxury goods as far as I know, which is why I excluded it. Also, I excluded Iron, Copper and Lead as they were more common than Gold, Silver and Tin and often occur together with those metals.

The river routes went both ways and can be seen as an extension of the luxury goods routes of the Mediterranean and also Greek/Anatolian wine was highly sought after by Celts. In return they shipped both unfinished metals, weapons, and most importantly probably armor where many Greek and later Roman helms and shields were Celtic adaptations or possible as is now being argued direct imports of finished products from Celts. Amber and intricate metalwork jewelry was also shipped over the river routes as luxury items. You are correct that Amber route should start between Memel and Danzig where majority of world's easily found Amber resides.

The iron trade with central Europe was of increasing importance to Rome in the era covered by RTW2 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arausio was fought over protecting Roman Celt allies who controlled the trade from invading Germanic tribes.

The other issue it might be good to bring up is how dynamic we want the routes to be?

IE- The origination point on the routes- should it be fixed firmly or allowed to wander between a small group of cities? I am in favor of allowing some wandering but over a smaller area whereas the central part of the routes would have many more cities competing. The final parts of the routes merge into other routes for the most part going east to west and the final destinations should have the widest amount of cities competing to win the last stop of the route.

What benefits other than income should accrue? Cultural, diplomatic, population growth? Etc...

[Landil]

There are only two ways I can see the Mediterranean route work currently: acting as the point of confluence of ALL the different long distance trade routes (not just the Silk Route, that's incorrect), or not at all. What could perhaps work is this:

Spoiler for map: 

As you can see on this map, I've increased the amount of Emporia by 5 in comparison with the OP's map. But that is not the most interesting feature of my map, which would be the fact that every Emporium has only two sea trade routes, apart from Athens, which has five. This is because it limits the complexity of the system while it retains its efficiency and scale. The rule is that all Emporia can only have two sea trade routes, apart from one Emporium that is in one of the four socio-economic regions located in the central part of the Mediterranean. These four regions are on the map represented by Athens, Carthage, Rome and Syracuse. Without the presence of this 'Capital Emporium' in one of these regions, the regions cannot all stay connected. Which Emporium of the four regions is the 'Capital' is determined by total value it generates. So a siege or a blockade is certain to end a Capital Emporium's dominance, but as long as it has the function, its value is huge compared to any city.

On towards an important point now: how do the valuable goods travel between the Emporia? I think the only way is by representing the goods by the value they generate, and every branch that an Emporium has will divide the value into parts. However, goods cannot travel back the same route they came, nor can they travel to a place that receives 100% of the load. Let my give you a quick overview of what every Emporium receive of the original value of every of the three luxury goods:

Spoiler for percentages: 

Alexandria: 40% Amber (20% from Athens, 20% from Tyre), 100% Incense (point of origin), 70% Silk (50% from Tyre, 20% from Athens)
Athens: 100% Amber (from Epidauros), 100% Incense (from Alexandria), 100% Silk (from Tyre)
Byzantium: 20% Amber (from Ephesus), 20% Incense (from Ephesus), 20% Silk (from Ephesus)
Carthage: 40% Amber (20% from Gader, 20% from Syracuse), 40% Incense (20% from Gader, 20% from Syracuse), 40% Silk (20% from Gader, 20% from Syracuse)
Chersonesos: 20% Amber (from Byzantium), 20% Incense (from Byzantium), 20% Silk (from Byzantium)
Ephesus: 20% Amber (from Athens), 20% Incense (from Athens), 20% Silk (from Athens)
Epidauros: 100% Amber (from Patavium), 20% Incense (from Athens), 20% Silk (from Athens)
Gader: 40% Amber (20% from Carthage, 20% from Massalia), 40% Incense (20% from Carthage, 20% from Massalia), 40% Silk (20% from Carthage, 20% from Massalia)
Massalia: 40% Amber (20% from Gader, 20% from Rome), 40% Incense (20% from Gader, 20% from Rome), 40% Silk (20% from Gader, 20% from Rome)
Patavium: 100% Amber (point of origin), 20% Incense (from Epidauros), 20% Silk (from Epidauros)
Rome: 40% Amber (20% from Athens, 20% from Massalia), 40% Incense (20% from Athens, 20% from Massalia), 40% Silk (20% from Athens, 20% from Massalia)
Syracuse: 20% Amber (from Athens, 20% from Massalia), 20% Incense (from Athens), 20% Silk (from Athens)
Trapezus: 20% Amber (from Chersonesos), 20% Incense (from Chersonesos), 20% Silk (from Chersonesos)
Tyre: 40% Amber (20% from Alexandria, 20% from Athens), 70% Incense (50% from Alexandria, 20% from Athens), 100% Silk (point of origin)

As you can see, Athens, the Capital Emporium, links all the routes together. Without it, the system would have to be far more complicated to work properly. This is really as minimally complicated as I could get it without it refusing to work.

So what do you guys think?

[Ichon]

The one part I don't see in that system is how would the routes be dynamic? That is the most important point of the OP's concept. Also how does N African and other trade connect to the Mediterranean route there outlined? Athens would also be very rich under this system- 300% with Tyre and Alexandria the next closest at 210% That doesn't seem correct covering the sweep of history RTW2 will cover and a main point of why the routes need to be dynamic.

I think the issue is whether or not to track the individual goods along the route or just to make route a fixed number or a fixed trade, diplomacy, pop growth multiplier. Tracking individual goods is probably too complicated unless its a multiplier. A fixed multiplier of those goods flowing along a dynamic route would allow supply of goods fluctuates with the size/trade infrastructure of the cities it passes through.

For example if Merv on Turn 1 has 20,000 population and the Silk Road route multiplier is .2 the value of Silk on the first trade stop would be 4,000- then the second city on the trade route is only 5,000 which gives a value of only 1000, and the next stop is claimed by Colchis with 10,000 for 2000. This simulates goods in smaller regions being traded on to larger markets where they are worth more but a few are still traded in the local stop. If the Silk Road route split into northern; Colchis, Trebizond, Anatolia competition regions and a southern; Levant, Egypt, Arabia competition a multiplier would still work but it might be .1 along each part of the split route so Tyre with 8,000 gets 800. Tyre might also sit on the Mediterranean route of which all the goods are a part but at lower multiplier so perhaps .05 is the Silk component of the Mediterranean trade of the eastern Mediterranean, Tyre would then also get 400 for Silk on that separate route for total income of 1,200 from Silk. Tyre is also trading other goods on the Mediterranean route so Amber is also .05 as are Metals, Incense, and Slaves for a total of another 1,200 from all goods on that route for 2,400 income for Tyre being a trade stop on 2 routes. If however Alexandria were to capture the eastern Mediterranean route with a population of 20,000 and also held the Incense route it would get .2 multiplier of Incense route along with .05 of the 5 other trade goods on the Mediterranean route for total income of 9,000 from holding both routes. Perhaps a -.01 for distance on the Mediterranean route from where the original trade route connects? So for Metals coming from British isles at Gades it would be -.03 for 3 trade stops away so the multiplier of metals at Alexandria would be only .02 reducing by 600 income. Amber would also be -.03 while Slaves from N Africa is only -.02 so that would make total income 7,400. So the largest cities along the routes would benefit more than others but routes would remain dynamic and trade disruptions along a route could cause even a very large city to lose control of a route. It would also make naval wars and maintaining a large navy very important for those factions which sit on the possible juncture of 2 routes as they would lose half their income if their port is blockaded. Similar to United Provinces in ETW having to guard Antwerp closely. This would give Tyre earlier in the example total of 2,160 rather than 2,400.

[Biggus Splenus]

Sounds great, I think we should get CA to look at this thread

[HusKatten]

The posters Will be done soon. Ill see if i Can post them here today.

[HusKatten]

Updated pictures with improved graphics

Silk Road

Silk Road

Incense Road

Incense Road

Amber Road

Amber Road

Mediterranean Trade

Mediterranean Trade

Foreign Trade

Foreign Trade

These are the example pictures i'm using for the mail to CA. Their main purpose are basically to give examples on Trade Routes. I chose to still go with the regions being separated with geographical features rather than the socio-economic version. It's easier to grasp the idea this way and the target audience will easily see the logic behind it without further explanation. I will be using more pictures in the mail to describe events. These will be up tomorrow.

I posted this idea in the forum which Xerrop referred me to, check it out here: http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...663#post364663

These are just examples, CA WILL make historical accurate changes to their layouts and names if they choose to implement the idea. The full letter will be done by tomorrow and I'll try to preview it here somehow. Otherwise I can send them to those who wants to see them. I will let you know if i get an answer from CA once the mail has been posted. Thanks for all the support and the people who have helped developing the idea further. Whole TWC is a part of this idea.

[Ichon]

Good post over there though its on page 41 so I hope it gets noticed. I would have done some more dynamic examples of routes changing due to land wars or plagues/natural disasters, or perhaps even shifting alliances which were a trade pact ends.

[HusKatten]

Yes, the dynamic maps Will be in the post ill show them here tomorrow

[Ichon]

Yes, the dynamic maps Will be in the post ill show them here tomorrow

Did you ever update that or only post it on the offical forums?

[HusKatten]

Did you ever update that or only post it on the offical forums?

I didnt update the post. but I've got the files ready on my computer and will send them to CA in a matter of hours from now

[HusKatten]

Preview of the post to CA
"Dynamic Trade Routes"
This Feature aims to replace the current Trade Node System.

What is This?

1.1 What is This?

Iberian Sea Adriatic Sea Thyrrhenian Sea Aegean Sea Dark Sea Levantine Sea North African Coast The whole system is built upon regions which are separated by colour. These regions are made up of a number of provinces. In this example you can cleary see there are seven regions.

1.2 What Is This?

- - - Trade Route O Route Stop/City In this picture we’ve added Trade Routes and Route Stops. As you can see there is only one Route Stop in each Region. These Route Stops are Cities who has the honour to claim the Stop. These stops are very favourable for a city to have, and since only one city in each region can possess it, there will be competition. Basically it’s the most developed city in its Region that will claim the Route Stop, though there are other ways to claim it.

1.3 What is this?

If you compare this picture to the earlier one you can see that the Trade Route and the Route Stops has changed their locations. This is because I call this feature Dynamic Trade Routes - since thats what it is. Competition over the Route Stops have occured and I will explain how the competition played out. -We start from the east, and as you can see the city of Sidon has managed to maintain its supremacy in its region, thus keeping the Route Stop. -In the North African region the Route Stop has changed its owner from Kart-Hadast (Carthage) to Alexandreia. This particular competition went on peacefully. Alexandreia seems to have developed its cities roads, ports and marketplaces more than the city of Kart-Hadast has, thus gained a more economical attractive city and therefore also aquired the Route Stop. - In the Iberian Sea the former Route Stop holder was Mastia, but due to a resent sacking of the city its infrastrucutre was damaged and the Route Stop passed on to the regions next most developed city - Tingris. -In the thyrrhenian sea the city of Rome has, like Sidon, successfully maintained its dominance in its region, thus keeps the Route Stop. -In the Adriatic Sea a war has been ongoing between the Roman Empire and Epirus. Epirus has made an advance on the city of Taras since they wanted access to its prosperous Route Stop. Something went wrong during the siege of the city and Epirus destroyed more buildings than planned with their catapults. The citys infrastructure got heavily damaged and even though Epirus won the siege and claimed Taras, the Route Stop moved to the regions new most developed city - which due to the damage on Taras, now is Arpi. -In the Aegean Sea there is a great economical conflict due to the Trade Route, the Greek peninsula wants the Route Stop on their side of the sea, and the Anatolian factions wants it on their side. This has led to a naval war between two factions. The city of Sardis has blockaded the port of Athens for a X number of turns. This makes the Route Stop change its destination to a more prosperous and un-blockaded city in the region. The city of Sardis knew their city was well developed and thought they had the luck to be the regions next most developed city after Athens. They where right and their blockade of Athens granted them the Route Stop. -In the Dark Sea region the city of Chersonesos have been pillaged by steppe people, thus losing its grasp on the Route Stop. The city of Kallatis is the new owner of the Route Stop.

In-Game Effect

2.1 In-Game Effect

- - - Local Trading Cities that are not in a region that has access to the Dynamic Trade Route can still get involed and gets effected by the Trade Routes course. We can here see the good old Local Trading put into effect. If a city don’t have access to the Trade Route, or simply isn’t in the Dynamic Trade Route Region, it can get trade rights with the factions that holds the current Route Stops. This trade right will create a local trading with the faction and it will prioritze to trade with the city that holds the Route Stop. This is benefitial for both parties. The faction that owns the Route Stop gets a direct income bonus of 600 gold, and when it connects to other cities through local trading it will get an extra +50 gold for every city it connects to. And the cities that trades with the Route Stop City will in turn gain a +100 gold income.

2.2 In-Game Effect

- - - Army/Navy Movement X Attack White Colour represents a faction If you are too far away from a Dynamic Trade Route Region, or to far away from the current Stop Holder in order to benefit from a trade agreement (Local Trade Routes doesn’t cover too long distances). If you want to get involved with the Dynamic Trade Route then you can do as the two following examples: 1. The eastern Army movement describes how the Faction sends an army to take a province in the Adriatic Sea Region to be able to compete directly over the Dynamic Trade Route. 2. The western army movement describes how the factions sends a navy to colonize a province that is close to a Dynamic Trade Route Region who can benefit from a trade agreement with the current Stop Holder

2.3 In-Game Effect

If a Faction, like the above, manages to control all of the provinces that makes up a Dynamic Trade Route Region, then that faction gets the Monopoly-Bonus. Since that region only belongs to the same one faction, there is no international competition over that regions’ Dynamic Trade Route. In the above example the faction has monopoly in the Dark Sea Region. If a faction then also manages to conquer all the coastal regions of the mediterranean that faction gets the Mediterranean Conqueror-Bonus. It’s an historical ambition to own whole seas, this feature will make it worthwhile also in-game.

Trade Route Example

3.1 Trade Route Example - Silk Road

3.2 Trade Route Example - Incense Road

3.3 Trade Route Example - Amber Road

3.4 Trade Route Example - Foreign Trade

How does this fit with the Rome 2 formula?
Rome 2 is aiming for fewer but more decisive battles, so what will happen during peace time?
This feature may cause reasons for declaring war, but it’s just as possible to achieve success by peaceful actions.
An implementation will make peace time more interesting.

Will this mean frustrating hours of adapting the AI to this system?
I’m not an AI-programmer, but I’d say this will not be hard to implement. Despite the vast feature explanation that
has been done, it all comes down to own the most developed City within a Dynamic Trade Route Region.
That developement is already a basic feature for the AI. The AI is naturally competing over the Route Stop.
It has been mentioned that Rome 2’s AI will have set ambitions that will explain their actions on the Campaign map.
Adding this feature will provide solid reasons for trading empires like Carthage and Greek States to attack or seek
to claim the Trade Route Stops throughout Mediterranea.

What about the players that are not into trading?
The Dynamic Trade Route is not a vital thing to own for a player. All it does is providing your empire with bonus
income and better/worse diplomatic relations. The feature is all automatic, therefore you can choose to be consious
about its developement just as like you don’t have to be aware of it at all.

Does this small, yet great, feature add something to the replay-ability?
You can choose to play your R2 game just as you have played the other TW-games and don’t mind about trading.
And you can also center your campaign around these Trade Route Regions and profit from it. This will add great
replay-ability to the game.

Yet again, less battles and more decisive such.
The Trade Node System that this feature seeks to replace is all about spamming trade ship after trade ship just to
re-occupy that Trade Node for the tenth time. With this feature it’s no more, everything is automatic and the trade comes to you, not you to them. This goes well together with the R2 Formula.

CA is already working with a region and province system.
Maybe this region/province system is the key to implement this Dynamic Trade Route System. The whole Dynamic Trade can merely be represented by a trait or building in the city or it can be depicted on the campaign map like a trade route slightly bigger than the normal local trade routes. However a map showing the Trade Routes course in a "trade map tab", like my own pictures, would be the best way to illustrate its current state and help new players to understand.

Download link to the actual posters:http://speedy.sh/jFjVM/Dynamic-Trade-Routes.pdf
The regions, incomes, routes etc are just examples that are used to explain the idea. If CA wants to implement this idea i'm sure they will balance and correct everything.

[HusKatten]

I'm bumping this thread so that everyone can see the new and probably final preview of the feature.

Along with this bump i want to add another question: What are the cons/pros of owning these Route Stops? You gain a lot of benefits, thats the point, but we still need to balance it, and make the competition more interesting in late game.

Pros:
-Obviously you'll get a gold income, and probably even more income depending on how many cities your Route Stop City are trading with.
-Maybe a slight increase in population. People often comes to prosperous cities. This enables you to draft more troops from that city aswell as increasing your tax income.
-Adding good trading/taxing traits for the generals within the City.
-Relation improvement with nations that admire you or who prefer trade in place of war.

Cons:
-Increased Squalor. Big trading cities were often hit by plague. It will be a must to keep the plague away from the city in order to maintain the Route Stop.
-Relation decrease with other bigger trading nations that envy you.

The diplomatic penalty/bonus from owning a Trade Stop should not be very big. You should be able to keep and expand your trading empire without everyone starting to hate you. Most nations will probably be happy that you got the Route Stop and wants to trade with you. Only equal rivals holding provinces within the same Dynamic Trade Route Region will declare war on each other if the competition becomes too intense.

[NikeBG]

This is probably one of the best suggestions for a strategy game that I've ever seen. Just... an awesome idea! Particularly with how it would also help in "forcing" the northern, poorer factions to eventually raid or invade the southern, richer lands.

[Rorarii]

Holy Crap! Didn't realise you'd done a major revamp, looks alot clearer now.

Have CA responded to your system?

R

[HusKatten]

this feature have only had good replies and impressions. The more you praise this idea with replies, the bigger the chance that it Will get noticed by CA. The post has Been sent to CA with e-mail to their "info"-mail, i could not find any other suitable adress. I Will try to post it irl to CAs Office near London. i havent got any answers from CA yet, and i doubt they even read it since they probably get loads of mails about gameplay suggestions.

Nike: exactly. Its an easy implementation that wich presence Will have a very interesting inpact on the game. and as you say, it Will help motivate the actions of which the AI takes. Such as your example where barbarians seeks to profit from mefiterranean.

Yes, Rorarii your replies motivates Me to keep improving this idea

if you happen to stumble upon this thread CA or Jack. id be happy to recieve a comment

writing with my phone.

[Anna_Gein]

Wonderful work.
I really hope this will be add.