New foreign trade system (user suggestion)

[HusKatten]

I'm happy to announce that me and Ichon have started to work on a 3rd preview for this feature. This preview will be more in-depth than the current one and we're going to read through this whole thread and compile everything that our discussions have led to.
The goal of the 3rd preview is that we want to gather all the information up to date about this feature and present it in a pedagogical way so that everyone can understand without having to read through all the nine pages. We will still carry on with the discussions regarding this feature, so if YOU have any questions or ideas, don't be afraid to post a reply here. We won't make fun of your proposals, and we don't care about the historical accurateness. Even the tiniest idea can lead to something bigger. Happy foruming everybody!

Digly: We've tried all sorts of things. I've also submitted this idea on the official R2 forums for the idea competition. I guess all we can do is to keep an eye of Jack and Will to see if they are reading this thread or not. Or we'll have to get their attention in other ways. I do allow suggestions regarding "getting attention" to be discussed in this thread since i believe that's a vital part of an idea to become reality.

[Duncan III]

This is a very interesting thread, Huskatten- I'm looking forward to your update.

[HusKatten]

Thank you Duncan. I look forward to it also! I'll try to estimate the "release"-day when we've come further with the reading of this thread.

[Litoralis]

What happens when I exterminate the populace in a node city? Rerouting of route to new node city? or dramatic decrease in global trade?

[HusKatten]

If a city has a Trade Stop then that city is pretty developed and has a large population. If you exterminate everyone in that city then the population will drop to possibly 0. This city will probably no longer be suited for holding the Trade Stop and therefore it's passed on to the next well-developed city in the region. The Trade Route is just re-routed. International trade will be affected in some ways since a city has lost most of its value due to extermination - which means that cities that used to trade with the now exterminated city has lost some trade income. This decrease is not dramatic at all. Its just dramatic for the faction who owns the city that just got exterminated since he probably lost a great deal of income.

We haven't discussed global trade yet.

[Ichon]

Well after reading the whole thread today there are some areas probably need to be addressed by CA to develop further but main things-

Repression/security possibly adding to trade. If the roads are secure then trade is better off- could also be an effect before outright riots that as public order decreases so does trade at least on the local level.

Rivers or regions around rivers should gain something from? trade- whether its a simple bonus or allowing some cities that otherwise might not be competitive to have wider range of trade partners- for example if Nubia is only in contact with Ptolemies but controls upper Nile might still be able to make trade agreements with further factions as long as none are at war with Ptolemies and they have an open port. Similar with some German tribes on Danube being able to trade with Greeks in Black Sea despite Dacia being in the way as long as the factions controlling trade along the rivers aren't at war with the faction trying to trade on that river.

Grain- actual trade item or a strategic resource or both? If for example every army requires .5 grain per unit while in garrison and 1 grain while moving (spoilage and to feed the extra people who have to transport the grain) a rich faction might be able to trade for extra grain for its armies even if unable to grow it- of course they better have a strong fleet because if their armies begin to starve and attrition if grain trade is cut off... also shows a very basic form of logistics and allows choking off grain trade to impact enemies armies at least on a strategic level though any particular army might not not feel it unless the mechanic also makes any shortages of grain felt first by armies in foreign lands so any invading armies even if 300 miles from the port which is being blockaded are the first to feel effects on the supply chain as the food sent to them is diverted before it arrives. Of course the faction with invading army might simply put another army into garrison and gain +10 grain from that but basically shows some units recalled to keep the population calm in face of a shortage.

Extra grain can either be traded away or if there are no trade agreements possible or simply don't want to have one the grain instead of bring in extra income would reduce costs of army upkeep. So for every extra 1 grain costs reduce -.1% globally for armies. So if you have 30 extra grain your faction gets -3% global upkeep costs for armies and ships. So this would be more balancing between large and small factions- for example Egypt might produce 60 grain and require 40 for its armies, trade 10 away and the leftover 10 would give -1% global upkeep cost as there is plentiful supply of grain lowering costs across the board. On the other hand a small faction like Lusitania might only produce 20 grain and its army only requires 15, there is no one to trade with so get -.5% upkeep reduction. Reduction better than simply selling extra for more income as it is more balanced between large and small producers- where large producers already make considerable income and proportionally helps smaller powers a bit more- and creates more choice whether to sell extra grain for income knowing it might help rivals keep their armies at a larger size or gain a small reduction in upkeep costs at home which will also increase income but by a lower amount. A cap of global effect at 5% so even huge empire need diversify at some point and if cost go too low people stop producing. So max benefit would be 50 grain extra which should only possibly happen very late campaign.

Lastly is whether trade stop bonus affects only the single city or port that gains it or the rest of the region or even surrounding provinces.

In the 4 levels of trade I outlined last page other trade partners would get some benefits as trade stop gains a bonus on all trade then the trade partners trading with that faction also gain a bonus- though each trade partner only gains 1 bonus on 1 trade link, the faction holding trade stop gains a bonus on all trade partners so benefits much more.

Finally- what happens when faction controls more than 1 trade stop? Should each faction only control 1 per faction so the bonus of the 2nd trade stop is gained by whichever is the most developed city within that faction providing more benefits to that region or simply that 2nd bonus disappears? Rome was the dominant trading city and as each conquest even important trade cities prior to conquest lost some of their trade to Rome because 1, richest people lived in Rome, 2, Rome was the largest city, 3, all roads lead to Rome...

[HusKatten]

I can't see the trouble of owning several Trade Stops. Their bonus % only affects the Trade Stop citys income not the whole faction. Having two Trade Stops should pay off. Or should the Trade Stop bonus be factional?

I'm really tired at the moment so i might have missed something out. I'll sleep and come back tomorrow.

[Ichon]

I can't see the trouble of owning several Trade Stops. Their bonus % only affects the Trade Stop citys income not the whole faction. Having two Trade Stops should pay off. Or should the Trade Stop bonus be factional?

I'm really tired at the moment so i might have missed something out. I'll sleep and come back tomorrow.

Shogun2 trade agreements were factional with resources in owned regions providing the trade goods and the factional relationship and agreement duration providing the value of the trade. I have been thinking of the local level 1 trade as between local regions while the trade agreements, leagues, and trade stops are at factional level. So trade bonus for dynamic stop at local level is increased trade for all nearby regions as well as more distant faction trade partners. Then a regular trade agreement trades whatever resources faction has similar to Shogun2. Open ports and level of infra for how many potential trade partners there are. The trade bonus is for both buyers and sellers so trade stop owning faction might get a .3 bonus while other factions get .2 so they also gain some from trade with trade stop but only on that trade partnership. Trading with other faction who do not have have stop there is no bonus. So the trade stop faction gets bonus on all trade with everyone. League bonus is .2 also so trade stop faction trading with league partner gets .5 bonus on those trades, members of league can still trade with partner outside league as long as that faction does not war with anyone in the league. So member of league trading with trade stop faction faction gets .4 bonus on that trade agreement, only slightly lower than trade stop holder. So trade stop trade is more desired but the biggest winner remains tradestop holder giving incentive to maintain fleet and diplomatic connections to keep trade flowing. Best play for them is opportunistic taking factions without not only allies but trade partners and protecting its trade with leagues. If trade stop holder only has 3 trade agreements and only 2 are league member with all agreements equal at 1000 base then trade stop holder gains 1300 extra income plus a smaller amount on local trade but as it affects all nearby region total effect might add up to another 240 with 80 going to other faction neighbor close by.

[Argon Viper]

As long as trade agreements let you trade from any point in your empire instead of limiting you to only trading from your capital like Shogun 2 and Empire, I'll be happy.

[HusKatten]

I'll throw myself back into the discussion tomorrow when i'm done with my test. Either way i just received a reply from my e-mail to CA. While i'm not surprised at all they sent me this:

"Thank you for emailing us.

Unfortunately we do not accept unsolicited game suggestions or ideas directly. If you would like to contribute to public discussions about our games please join in at the official forums at www.totalwar.com – we look forward to seeing you there.

Kind Regards,"

I didn't expect anything else than this, but i actually never even expected a reply - So even though it was 3 month ago i sent the e-mail, i still want to give CA creds for the reply. Thank you CA.

EDIT: I'm planning on creating a thread on the official forums as well.

[Timotheus]

I expected such answer, I am sorry Huskatten! They don't want be worser than an ambitious house cat

[AlexCouceiro]

Very interesting ideas. If a non-static trade system could be adapted to the AI, it would certainly enhance the gameplay experience by giving you more things to do during peace time as well as during war time. It would also give you extra reason to carefully consider who to fight, when and how. Diplomacy and economics would profit from this idea, and replayability would get some extra flavor.

These are exactly the sort of features CA should start taking into consideration in order to make their games more interesting. Post your sketches on the official site, mate.

[Anna_Gein]

Hold the line.

The idea should be post on the official site. It will grow so much popular than CA will implement it. And if they resist I shall call upon the fearsome French syndicate to organize a march on CA studio. Victory will be ours.

[AlexCouceiro]

Hold the line.

The idea should be post on the official site. It will grow so much popular than CA will implement it. And if they resist I shall call upon the fearsome French syndicate to organize a march on CA studio. Victory will be ours.

Count me in your infantry lines. We will organize some trenches in front of the studio and shoot them down in case they won´t give in to the ideas. I will get a plane from Rio de Janeiro destined to Paris tonight, in a few minutes, and we will join the syndicate army tomorrow noon. How is that? And if you have any guerrilla plan in mind, take it with you and show it to me while we are on our way to CA´s headmasters studio.

* This is a scary picture, Anna. What happened to the lady in purple hair?

[Argon Viper]

It makes sense that CA would reject unsolicited ideas. I worked for an engineering corporation and I currently work for the Disney corporation, and the policy was explained to us as one of legal preservation. If you e-mail them and they take your idea, they could be on the hook to pay you a huge amount of money. When you post on the forums, part of the condition of doing so is that you release ownership of the ideas you put on here.

[Ichon]

It makes sense that CA would reject unsolicited ideas. I worked for an engineering corporation and I currently work for the Disney corporation, and the policy was explained to us as one of legal preservation. If you e-mail them and they take your idea, they could be on the hook to pay you a huge amount of money. When you post on the forums, part of the condition of doing so is that you release ownership of the ideas you put on here.

Yeah that is a pretty common policy, several corporations have been sued because someone claimed their work was used without compensation. I think the best bet is the "best idea" thread on the official forums. The only problem was it had something like 100 pages or more at the end? I saw your post there and it was on page 41 or 42 I think and not as well refined as we've gotten it now. I wonder if its worth it to edit it there? Probably some lower level people on the design team have to read through all that and pick the 20 best idea or something and then the rest of the team looks only at those so if you don't make the first cut... and any idea taking more than 2 paragraphs to explain I have a feeling won't get read. Would be nice to be wrong in this instance though- Lusted still shows up occasionally on here but he seems more focused on threads about units etc as that is his design responsibility. At least I never see him looking at campaign map or other miscellaneous threads though I don't really spend much time stalking him.

[HusKatten]

Ye, you guys are right. I'll edit my post in the suggestions thread and then open a new thread on the official forums. That thread will mostly be based on the 2nd preview and not the 3rd. The 3rd preview might be little more complex for the mass that grasp it. We'll give it to them when they are ready for it. Some support from you guys would be great. If some of you here who agree with the idea, approve the idea in the thread that i'll create on the official forum, then more people will be likely to read it.

I must honestly say that i'm a bit of a stalker when it comes to Jack and Will. I'm pretty optimistic about this idea, to optimistic for my own good. But even though i always stalk Jack and Will when they are online i never see them looking on this thread. I even try to write my posts so that this thread gets bumped when i see that they're logged in, but still none of them is looking. I will have a bit more spare time now so i'll work with the edit, the new thread and the 3rd preview today for as long as i can. The edit should be done by today, and the new thread should probably also be up today.

I cant tell you guys how much i appreciate that you are so concerned with this idea. I really love you guys. The release of Rome 2 is compensation enough for me - with or without an implementation of this idea. I just want a great game.

BTW, Anna Gein. I have to agree with AlexCouceiro. Where is the girl with the purple hair? I really miss her.

[Anna_Gein]

Count me in your infantry lines. We will organize some trenches in front of the studio and shoot them down in case they won´t give in to the ideas. I will get a plane from Rio de Janeiro destined to Paris tonight, in a few minutes, and we will join the syndicate army tomorrow noon. How is that? And if you have any guerrilla plan in mind, take it with you and show it to me while we are on our way to CA´s headmasters studio.

Very well. I shall start the recruitment in my country. Everyone can do the same in their own country. For now there is no need to gather in the same location. The most important point for the recruitment is that each recruit got a respectable level in English languages. (that will be quite a challenge in France as you could already see). We could organize some gathering later to share our international knowledge in protest, riot and warfare.
The syndicate of my country had gain some impressive experience in manifestation and riot thanks to my previous president Mr.Sarkozy alas that is slowly disappearing now that we got Mr.Hollande. Hell our forces anti-riot simply doesn't attack demonstrators without reason nor they start the riots themselves now.

But lets not get out of our head too quickly. I believe in peaceful discussion. Surely our friends at CA will see what is the best to do. More "active" action could be taken later as the game got a long way before release.

Ye, you guys are right. I'll edit my post in the suggestions thread and then open a new thread on the official forums. That thread will mostly be based on the 2nd preview and not the 3rd. The 3rd preview might be little more complex for the mass that grasp it. We'll give it to them when they are ready for it. Some support from you guys would be great. If some of you here who agree with the idea, approve the idea in the thread that i'll create on the official forum, then more people will be likely to read it.

Then I shall create an account on the official forum. You could always send a reply to the e-mail offering a link to the new thread. I'm quite surprise to now they actually bother themselves to reply to say no but we Parisians are know for our disrespectful behaviour.
I also advice to put a link on the first post here to the future thread on totalwar.com to gather more support from here. The idea has been quite successful and could came on the official forum with a good support from the start.

* This is a scary picture, Anna. What happened to the lady in purple hair?

BTW, Anna Gein. I have to agree with AlexCouceiro. Where is the girl with the purple hair? I really miss her.

It is the second singer of the Japanese band Deathgaze. You should listen to them. Back at this time they had a bassist player on a 6 string bass and completely transvestite in Gothic Lolita who later became the third and actual singer
I especially advise the CDs "「294036224052」", "CHAOS" and "DOWNER" that should be listen from the start to the end (respectively 4 tracks, 5 tracks and 3 tracks). The band got too much variety to advice one song alone so the listening of an entire CD is a must whatever it might be.

Honestly I got an idea for at least the three next picture (and they should be less "remarkable") but if the demand is so much popular I will use again the first picture.
As we are the 1st November I can use the most popular picture until now for the whole month if you prefer.

[HusKatten]

Heres the link to the thread on the official forums

I find it very troublesome to get the layout correct on the official forum. But i'll get used to it It's time to get this idea visible so make sure you get an account on the official forum and start to approve the idea in the thread linked above.

My entry in the competition thread looks like crap. So i don't think they'll notice it as a good idea. And since the thread is closed I can't edit that post...

EDIT: 7 replies atm. After the first few questions are cleared out i assume the thread will take the same direction as this one.

[Ichon]

Posted in CA forums thread. Saw some interest but people are thinking gray areas have no trade. Maybe need to make that point next and show how trade stop shifting in one region can affect others.