Are muslim women really oppressed ?

[-Stormrage-]

Check it out, and comment below.


Lauren Booth, Tony Blair's sister in law

Interested to see what you think about this.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

No. Most converts in the West are women, alas. And when the women start converting, it's a matter of time before the men start doing it too.

[SLN445]

Aslong as one has the freedom of choice, to convert or to leave and to choose what practices they follow, then they are not oppressed.

[Invictus XII]

Not at all. Why? Because they don't act like Americans? This ignorant western view does the same with the foreigners, because they aren't like Americans, means they are worse off.

[Mangalore]

Check it out, and comment below.


Lauren Booth, Tony Blair's sister in law

Interested to see what you think about this.

That western women converting to Islam have not been oppressed is essentially because they live in a liberal western society. The issue is about women (and even anyone else) growing up in Middle Eastern societies. Just let one of them try to convert to Judaism there and in case of women violate the dress code or some obscure tribal laws. Then one will notice a difference.

[Denny Crane!]

Do women in Islamic countries have the freedom to travel? Do they enjoy the same rights and privileges as the men? In short no. They do not. Is spousal abuse legal in most of these countries? Yes.

So yes they are oppressed the only question is whether or not it is due to government or Islam, I'd say somewhere imbetween.

[Claudius Gothicus]

So yes they are oppressed the only question is whether or not it is due to government or Islam, I'd say somewhere imbetween.

An interesting outlook, I would risk that the real problem is in the radical form of islam that thrives and reproduces itself within Civil Societies of small plurality and little educational progress. The governments are either powerless or religiously dominated so they can't or won't change it unless a Political Change(replacement of Elites) or a Cultural Revolution(generational rift) of sorts erupts.I would put the problem in everyday customs that Islam overlooks or approves out of historical inbrincation.

I'm also going to accuse a problem in the Labor Market, back in the early industrialization when women entered the Labor Market their submissive and secondary role started to change, rather radically, first in the Lower Classes and later in the Middle and Upper ones. Going from simple housekeepers to major providers, greater gender consciousness and as a result a stronger demand for rights. Did the same really happen in the Middle East?

[Vizvii]

I'm also going to accuse a problem in the Labor Market, back in the early industrialization when women entered the Labor Market their submissive and secondary role started to change, rather radically, first in the Lower Classes and later in the Middle and Upper ones. Going from simple housekeepers to major providers, greater gender consciousness and as a result a stronger demand for rights. Did the same really happen in the Middle East?

Has large scale industrialisation happened at all in the Middle East?

Christianity isn't any better in terms of women's right, it's just that the traditionally Christian world has become secularised, as it should be.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Has large scale industrialisation happened at all in the Middle East?

Christianity isn't any better in terms of women's right, it's just that the traditionally Christian world has become secularised, as it should be.

Well I don't know if large-scale industrialization ever happened, but let's say that if it did it still wasn't enough to change the rural-based demographics that determined a more conservative way of life back in the day. Constant Warfare won't help either.

[Vizvii]

Well I don't know if large-scale industrialization ever happened, but let's say that if it did it still wasn't enough to change the rural-based demographics that determined a more conservative way of life back in the day. Constant Warfare won't help either.

I think war and massive political and social instability are to blame for the backwards state of the Muslim world. Islamic fundamentalism is a relatively recent invention.

[Visna]

Has large scale industrialisation happened at all in the Middle East?

That depends. Much of the industrialisation that has happened has been oil related, and there has been little need for anything else. But places like the small Gulf states or Iran and Saudi Arabia for example have begun diversifying their economies in preparation for the day when oil will become prohibitively expensive.

As far as the OP is concerned, it's an odd question. Compared to what, when, who, how?

[Yomamashouse]

Christianity isn't any better in terms of women's right, it's just that the traditionally Christian world has become secularised, as it should be.

This person's point cannot be overlooked. It is not fair to compare Christianity to Islam too closely because the first world has done a good job of snipping the balls off of Christianity. Islam is still centered in 3rd world places run by despots.

[Denny Crane!]

Constant war is the cause?

Is that true for all the countries? Not sure if it is.

[Denny Crane!]

It is a rather bold claim to state that social and political conditions are more important while at the same time dismissing what is a huge factor in the social strata and drives and informs attitudes within society. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Vizvii]

It is a rather bold claim to state that social and political conditions are more important while at the same time dismissing what is a huge factor in the social strata and drives and informs attitudes within society. It just doesn't make any sense.

Why didn't it have the same outcome in Europe, then? Social and political is where I draw the comparison. Christianity and Islam were both equally influential (and there stances towards women are pretty much the same as far as I know) yet differing historical circumstances made it so that the Middle East is backwards and oppressive today, while Europe is fully secular and egalitarian, even its poorer countries.
I don't deny that the complex of factors is too broad to describe, I was simply pointing out a small part of the picture.

Define social conditions, I believe religion and the Occupational Ladder are social factors. Aren't they?

Religion can be classified as social, I suppose, though I'd see it as a category of its own. Religion itself is born out of social, but also political and economical concerns (for instance, the Hebrew Bible advocates slavery because it was essential to ancient Jewish economy)

[Claudius Gothicus]

Religion can be classified as social, I suppose, though I'd see it as a category of its own. Religion itself is born out of social, but also political and economical concerns (for instance, the Hebrew Bible advocates slavery because it was essential to ancient Jewish economy)

Yes but religion is a social factor, social factors are those who pertain to the way Civil Society(unlike Political ones) is structured and differentiated, like Labor, Status and property or non-governamental institutions.

In that sense when one explains the propensity of a population toward a certain ideological or cultural pattern one has to take into account the relevant factors, it's believed that most religions are Normative Systems and as a result their careful analysis is preeliminary to any prediction or explanation of a particular form of Moral Organization.

[Denny Crane!]

Why didn't it have the same outcome in Europe, then? Social and political is where I draw the comparison. Christianity and Islam were both equally influential (and there stances towards women are pretty much the same as far as I know) yet differing historical circumstances made it so that the Middle East is backwards and oppressive today, while Europe is fully secular and egalitarian, even its poorer countries.
I don't deny that the complex of factors is too broad to describe, I was simply pointing out a small part of the picture.


Religion can be classified as social, I suppose, though I'd see it as a category of its own. Religion itself is born out of social, but also political and economical concerns (for instance, the Hebrew Bible advocates slavery because it was essential to ancient Jewish economy)

This is just full of unfounded thoughts and ifs buts and maybes.

Christianity and islam are both equally influential? Are they really? Quite clearly christianity had less influence in France whereas in Saudi Arabia it was a gifantic influence with the rise of wahabbi findamentalist doctrines which had every desire to focus on exerting religious goals through political means. The stances towards women are the same? Says who and by what standard? By historical example or literary and in which tradition vs which?

If your small picture means making really inaccurate wild statements that you then draw rather concrete conclusions from then Id avoid small pictures.

What can more easily be looked at is the reality now, today, what current freedoms do they have and what are they denied.

[Vizvii]

Christianity and islam are both equally influential? Are they really? Quite clearly christianity had less influence in France whereas in Saudi Arabia it was a gifantic influence with the rise of wahabbi findamentalist doctrines which had every desire to focus on exerting religious goals through political means.

Europe has had its share of religious fundamentalism over the ages. Do you mean to say that France's Huguenot movement and the ensuing religious wars were a non-issue? Or that the 18th century absolute monarchies weren't supported by religion? Europe was every bit as dominated by the Christian religion as the Middle East was by Islam, and yet now the former is secular while the later struggles with primitive laws and ways.

The stances towards women are the same? Says who and by what standard? By historical example or literary and in which tradition vs which?

Scripture, primarily. That's the defining aspect of a religion, after all.
http://www.christianity-islam.com/woman.html

Really, I don't see which of my "concrete conclusions" were anything other than common sense.

[magpie]

Western female converts are heretics and should be punished.
Muslim females who convert are again heretic,s and are punished.

[Denny Crane!]

Drawing most of their quotes from the Old Testament, something which lost a great deal of its relevance the more time went on as any TWC christian will take great pains to talk about. But if you can find credible evidence to suggest scripture influencing christianity during its fundamentalist oeriod like selling your youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21.7.

People being put to death for working on the sabbath (exodus 35.2 I think), leviticus 11.7 and leviticus was very popular on that comparison page, touching the skin of a dead pig makes you unclean. Given the rich history and strength of pig farming throughout Euopean history good luck with that.

But its cool if all you are interested in winning the argument and sctipture comparisons are done on this level Ill leave you to it.