Vatican II. For or against?

**Sétanta** · July 02, 2006, 04:25 PM

Are you, yes I am talking to you, opposed or for the Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican?

Basically the Second Vatican Council (commonly known as Vatican II) was all about the liberalization of the Catholic Church, swaying away from the more literalist and classical-conservatism that the Church was built upon. Much of what we know now as the Catholic Church was decided upon then (without taking heretical ideals of course). It was also notable for opening more cordial relations towards Protestants (ie, not damning them to hell anymore). It is generally praised by Catholics as it moves towards a more modern and scientific approach to the world, but has also been criticised as changing "the focus of the Church from seeking the salvation of souls to improving mankind's earthly situation," as well as moving away greatly from the original teachings of the Church.

It covered far to much for me to write about without writing a novel so more reading can be found here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Vatican_Council

ps. Poll coming.

pss. I would list other sources but all the good ones are at the bottom of the Wikipedia page.

**Sidus Preclarum** · July 03, 2006, 03:15 AM

I voted as an ex-catholic here.
VII was a very good thing imho, even though I "miss" (never saw one actually, but I listen to church music a lot ) the decorum value of a mass in Latin (but, then, chuch music is pretty much dead, and has been since the XIXth century...)

**Bruticus the Steadfast** · July 03, 2006, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by Sidus Preclarum

I voted as an ex-catholic here.
VII was a very good thing imho, even though I "miss" (never saw one actually, but I listen to church music a lot ) the decorum value of a mass in Latin (but, then, chuch music is pretty much dead, and has been since the XIXth century...)

Ditto, Ex-Catholic, voted as Catholic, so that that into consideration.

**IamthePope** · July 04, 2006, 12:27 AM

I have mixed feelings about Vatican II but I feel that is helped the church modernize in certain areas while remaining true to it's principles as a whole. I have yet to definitively arrive at a verdict on the value of the second Vatican Council.

The Catholic Church has never abandoned anyone. All are welcome. There are no "Ex-Catholics".

700th Post

**MaximiIian** · July 05, 2006, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by IamthePope

There are no "Ex-Catholics".

Apparently there are. A catholic person can stop being catholic, you realize that right?

**IamthePope** · July 05, 2006, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Hapsburg

Apparently there are. A catholic person can stop being catholic, you realize that right?

They might give up on the Church and God but Catholic Church and God wil not give up on them.

Originally Posted by Mudd

Opus Dei for example....

Actually, that is why I opened this thread. Dan Brown makes a good point in one of the books (Da Vinci Code or Angels and Demons) about how some members of the Roman Curia are desperate to return to having full parishes every time. How people crave guidance from the Church, not the "Go do whatever you like. You don't need to come to church or partake in any Sacraments, he will forgive you anyways" that you get alot today.

I've heard this argument made by some of my Catholic freinds. Could it be that the Orthodox Catholic churches are attended by the Orthodox leaning Catholics who travel farther to worship at a pre-Vatican Church instead of their local church? This might explain the full attendance of such a service that it much rarer and therefore much more sought after than the normal mass. Were it to become the norm though, I doubt that it would receive such a wide appeal.

**Zenith Darksea** · July 03, 2006, 03:26 AM

I'm generally in favour of that Council's findings and attitudes, but I have to object to the term 'Oecumenical'.

**Cayo_Julio_Cesar** · July 04, 2006, 07:05 PM

i voted for catholic....in fact if weren't for the changes made on the Vat II , i'd probably be an orthodox right now.

**Turbo** · July 05, 2006, 04:38 PM

I am a bit surprised that so many Catholics on here think that Vatican II was actually good for the Church. Facts are that attendance in worship is down dramatically since Vatican II. The only growth that is being seen is from the prelatures whose appeal is more orthodox and conservative. During business travel I am often far away from the prelatures and must worship at the mainline church. I am always surprised to see how empty the churches are during worship. I contrast this to the prelatures that are always full.

**Sétanta** · July 05, 2006, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Turbo

I am a bit surprised that so many Catholics on here think that Vatican II was actually good for the Church. Facts are that attendance in worship is down dramatically since Vatican II. The only growth that is being seen is from the prelatures whose appeal is more orthodox and conservative. During business travel I am often far away from the prelatures and must worship at the mainline church. I am always surprised to see how empty the churches are during worship. I contrast this to the prelatures that are always full.

Opus Dei for example....

Actually, that is why I opened this thread. Dan Brown makes a good point in one of the books (Da Vinci Code or Angels and Demons) about how some members of the Roman Curia are desperate to return to having full parishes every time. How people crave guidance from the Church, not the "Go do whatever you like. You don't need to come to church or partake in any Sacraments, he will forgive you anyways" that you get alot today.