Balancing factions

[Wizad]

Basically to avoid a conversation in the suggestions thread, I'm opening a new thread.


In my opinion Harad and Rhun are the easiest factions and they should be toned down a bit.

I like Harad as a faction. The fact that you can recruit some units in your capital and other units at Umbar makes for a dynamic game.
I believe that Rhun should get the same treatment but more extensive since it is a confederation of small factions. Generic infantry and archers should be recruitable everywhere so you have something to recruit in new regions, most other units should have some type of AoR system. Maybe a AoR system where you can only recruit that regions units on barracks level 1, but on higher levels you can also recruit clansmen and the golden armor guys.

Someone recently posted a script in the Ask Questions thread that allowed Harad and Rhun switch sides. It would be fun if this was possible in the Vanilla game. Making it have requirements that new people wouldn't instinctively do would avoid new players suddenly finding themselves excommunicated.

Maybe ALL generals should have the same movement points on the campaign map. This will buff the Orcish factions which are quite weak, but also Dale which might need a small buff.

Isengard doesn't feel like an unique faction. And the OotMM and OoG also need something that sets them apart.

Isengard needs extra industrious buildings in the Orthanc to represent the 'mind made of metal'. Making the faction revolve more around the Orthanc at one side and the hills of Dunland at the other will make Isengard more unique. Currently I'm trying to do that in my own campaign by seperating Dunland units under the Dunland general and Uruk raiding parties under an Uruk general.

OoG could get recruitable Rhudaur Hillmen and mercenary Rhudaur Cavalry to set it apart from the OotMM. The OotMM could get more types of trolls to represent the vastness of the Misty Mountains. Perhaps even some AoR trolls. Macilrille said that Wargs were very light cavalry, this is already well represented in the game by having the Warg Riders have low armor values.

For Isengard and the nothern Orc factions I like what MoS has done. They created more types of Snaga warriors.



I'll edit this later.

[mondpeiler]

good idea for a thread.

I agree that Rhûn is very strong and most times they win over Dale. Dale can only stand their ground if they get propper aid of the dwarves.

But what bothers me more are the Silvan Elves they seem to be unabled to fight both Mordor and OOTMM. my personal experience: I've never seen them gaining territory on their own beyond the western flood plain of the Anduin and south of Dol Guldur. The only thing they seem to be capable at maximum is to hold their ancestral lands - at maximum!

and in general (endgame) the bad factions perform much better in the fight AI vs AI. I think this has to do with the auto-resolve-settings:
trigger: the heavy units: Trolls and Mûmaks are auto-resolve-killers and the (good) AI has no chance to "use" balistas/catapults or spear-throwers or simply "tactics" against those units.
auto-resolve -> advantage heavy unit -> bad full- or even half-stack wins against good full-stack.
and in endgame nearly every Harrad-Stack has Mûmaks, Mordor-/Orc-Stack has Trolls and often more than one unit.
perhaps the devs could change a bit the impact of those units in the auto-resolve.
this would give the good-AI some better chances in lategame.

EDIT

and concerning Harrad:
Harrad is only strong, because Gondor has to face both Harrad and Mordor at the same time.
and neither Rohan nor Silvan Elves are of big help against Mordor...
if one of those factions could push south-east then it would help Gondor in an immane way!

[Wizad]

On the Silvan Elves, Mordor, Rhun and evil factions in general when played by the AI:
It seems to me that the main thing holding the AI back is recruitment time. Money simply isn't a factor in this game for the AI. The only thing holding the AI back when expanding is the amount of units it can recruit. Evil faction units (especially Mordor and Rhun) have recruitment times of 2 turns. Every 2 turns, Rhun can recruit a unit of Balchoth Tribesmen for every settlement it holds. Silvan Elves have a way longer recruitment time. In a game with only the SE and Rhun, Rhun will simply be able to smash all available units against the SE and sooner or later the SE armies will crumble under the superior production capacity of Rhun. I took these 2 factions because they seem to be the extremes on opposite sides.

If SE had more types of unit to recruit, units will become faster available on average.

Example to clarify this all:
I have 1 city.
I can recruit 1 type of units in my barracks, generic infantry 1.
Generic infantry 1 needs 5 turns to replenish in the recruitment pool. That means I can recruit 1 unit every 5 turns. As a result it would take me (amount of units in a stack) *5 = (amount of turns required to field a full stack).
Now let's say I can recruit 2 types of units in my barracks. Both have a replenishment time of 5 turns. (amount of units in a stack) /2*5 = (amount of units required to field a full stack). I can now recruit stacks in half the time it took before, if money isn't an issue that is.

Rhun can recruit Balchoth Tribesmen every 2 turns. They have multiple cities. It only takes 4 turns or something for the Rhun AI to field a full stack (and that is with only recruiting 1 type of unit!). Imagine the time it takes to recruit a full stack when Rhun recruits all of the available units. They simply can spam stacks to easy.
Silvan Elven units have a way longer replenishment time. It takes the Silvan Elves AI 10 turns or something to field a full stack.
All the other factions are inbetween of these numbers.

To balance this out I propose that Balchoth Tribesment become more of an AoR unit. Where does the Balchoth tribe reside?
Also another balance proposal is a redoing the way AI gets money. I like the difference in gameplay that causes the Silvan Elves to be more restricted in recruitment replenishment time and Rhun to be more restricted by money.

So what can we do to make the AI more restricted by money? I've seen the Carl script on this forum that I found really interesting.
Basically what it does is give the AI less money. Normally this would cause the AI to simply recruit all the units it can till it has 0 gold, and then go bankrupt because of the upkeep. What the Carl script does the avoid this, is make the AI unable to recruit units when it has a low amount of money. This AI likes to spend its money, so it will now spend the remaining gold it has (let's say 10000) on economical buildings since that is the only option left to spend money. The AI's economy will bloom because of it and it will transform itself into a bigger empire in an elegant way (with real construction instead of rapid expansion because of unit spam).




You are right that the campaign dynamics also could use a small change when it comes to Gondor, Mordor and Harad. Almost all other factions are somehow balancing each other. When the Dwarven AI tries to kill Rhun too much, the nothern Orcish factions will take the western Dwarven empire and assault Dain's Halls and from there the Silvan Elves. When the Isengard AI focusses on Rohan too much, Eriador will thrive and begin to own. When the Silvan Elves go for Dol Guldur, OotMM has a chance to take Beorn's Halls. But Gondor, Mordor (excluding Dol Goldur) and Harad are a bit isolated. They don't have to deal with all the other factions too much.
But to be honest, I feel like this is also part of the game. It really feels when you are Gondor that you are shielding Rohan, and even Eriador, from the menace of the east. Changing this would feel really weird and most likely will cause these 3 strong factions to overrun the smaller other factions that they will have to deal with. For example if Gondor will have to deal with Isengard somehow, it will simply overrun Isengard because of its supiority while not affecting the situation around Osgiliath and Pelagir much.

tl;dr for the last paragraph: maybe don't change the interaction between Gondor, Mordor and Harad and the rest of the factions. It is good that they are isolated.

[k/t]

Carl makes buildings cost 1 florin for the AI, and if an AI faction goes bankrupt it gives it a cash infusion - enough to build, not enough to recruit.

Replenishment times and recruitment times are two different things.

There is absolutely no reason for Rhun to have its units replenish in two turns.

Once again, RR/RC would solve a lot of the problems that Vanilla is suffering from.

"I like the difference in gameplay that causes the Silvan Elves to be more restricted in recruitment replenishment time and Rhun to be more restricted by money."

Yeah, that would be great, if Rhun's lands weren't so rich and the AI didn't get such huge money bonuses that removed that restriction.

[Wizad]

Yeah, that would be great, if Rhun's lands weren't so rich and the AI didn't get such huge money bonuses that removed that restriction.

Exactly!

[mondpeiler]

well in the end the problem is never the real player!
I can handle every faction and like the differences... it should stay like this for the me (the player).

but what bothers me, is that the AI can't handle some factions. in most parts the balance of power is more or less even, with slight or perhaps stronger aptitude towards one faction.
so in most cases there is one dominating faction, but the weaker factions have their heights, too.
I've seen all factions doing well one or more times - nearly all darkhorse-factions made their way once in my campaigns, except silvan elves. (idk perhaps someone else did)

I've even seen OoG rocking Erriador/Arnor, High-elves & Dvarves!
I've seen OotmM defeating both elven territories to their west and east!
I've seen Dale wiping out Rhûn and trying to invade Mordor from its backside!
I've seen Rohan killing Isengard in a rather short time and then turning against Mordor and Rhûn (but then they got stucked ;-)
I've seen Gondor holding Mordor at bay and invading Harrad up to Rhûns borders in the far east

But I have never ever seen the Silvans doing sth. similar

[k/t]

The problem with Vanilla is that factions are too similar. The number of men per unit is too high for the good factions, there's no difference in numbers between elves and men and dwarves, and all factions have troops to fill every possible battlefield role (and this gets worse with every version or submod, because "omg, add more units! Dwarves need cavalry! And Elves need pikemen! And AP units!). That is not the case with the RR/RC Compilation (for 1.4.1).

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=512672
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=501803&page=2

In RR/RC, not even orcs replenish in two turns.

Also, the fact that good and evil factions can fight amongst themselves instead of only the other side is a huge minus for Vanilla. Isengard fighting Mordor is one thing, but Dwarves or Elves fighting Eriador is just plain stupid. You will unite, or you will fall!

[Ngugi]

The problem with Vanilla is that factions are too similar. The number of men per unit is too high for the good factions, there's no difference in numbers between elves and men and dwarves, and all factions have troops to fill every possible battlefield role (and this gets worse with every version or submod, because "omg, add more units! Dwarves need cavalry! And Elves need pikemen! And AP units!). That is not the case with the RR/RC Compilation (for 1.4.1).

(...)

Also, the fact that good and evil factions can fight amongst themselves instead of only the other side is a huge minus for Vanilla. Isengard fighting Mordor is one thing, but Dwarves or Elves fighting Eriador is just plain stupid. You will unite, or you will fall!

Two factors on size modifications;

1) Animations. If inferior in number the small unit will lose to a greater foe even if much superior in stats. As teh defence animation will override attacks, and due to the superior number of attacks recived, the unit would only manage to slowly get killed off; not defeat the foe even if on the paper it look as they should stand a chance.

2) Unrest. A faction with small units would face problems here as their ability to maintain order is reduced. This may be handled by adding special Law-bonuses to buildings for such factions though, but call for a careful balance claculation.


No, I call it a huge benefit of vanilla - otherwise would just be silly in all honesty.
You will unite or you will fall. Good words of little actual political worth in Tolkiens creation.
In the very face of Morgoth Noldor Elves fought each other and Sindar in the First Age. And so did Dwarves and Sindar - and they've disliked each ever since.
The Númenoreans fell from grace, acted tyrants and plunderers and turned to worship Sauron.
Northmen fought among themselves as well as for and with Gondor but also against Gondor together with Easterlings. Rohan is an admirable exeption, but that do not mean there haven't been civil wars among themselves.
Dúnedain has fallen and fought each other [see Castamir] and all Men beside the Dúnedain of the North and Dale+Woodsmen is at best distrustful against Elves.
Just 40 years ago a war between on one side the Longbeard Dwarves and on the other Mirkwood and Dale broke out over the spoils of gold - and Gloin is still mad at Thranduil we understand in FotR. That they did not started their war is not due to the very existance of a common foe but that this foe attacked them just as they were about to cut each others troaths.
The Ents do not move to help anyone else but themselves.
The White Council is only for Elves and Istari, while Elronds Council was a coincidence (by fate or Eru presumably) since people dropped in - and not at all summoned United Nations of ME for "Good guys".
Lórien fought by themselves. so did Mirkwood. The Vale of Anduin realm fight alone. Dwarves and Dale as neighboors ofc fought together. Rohan and Gondor was at its own even if allied till the nick of time. These five, or four, Anti-Sauron fronts were perhaps friendly, but we're never told they fought as one side of allies against the hordes of Sauron.
Neither do the evil groups stay faithful mind you. Saruman is obvious. Shagrat and Gorbag discuss desertion to govern their own, and their Orcs and Uruks fight each other. Orcs of Moria aint interested in helping out either Sauron's or Saruman's guys after the raid at Parth Galen but mind their own buisness. In the east and south Aragorn mention there to be men who's good after traveled there. Easterlings and haradrim has been in war while under Saurons influence. Etc.
So much for the lore.
More importantly it's a What-If-game. Or you should only play the Fellowship-campaign, if to stary from what happened in the books is a problem. Thus limitations will not contribute to the freedom of the player. Use houserules or get a submod if there's a wish for it, do not restrict the player by default.
If you want to take a step away from Tolkien's Middle-earth to make it easier or fit your private vision of ME then that's fine, but it should not be brought into vanilla TATW.

[grandgnu]

Also, the fact that good and evil factions can fight amongst themselves instead of only the other side is a huge minus for Vanilla. Isengard fighting Mordor is one thing, but Dwarves or Elves fighting Eriador is just plain stupid. You will unite, or you will fall!

Not to go off on a tangent, but that's a highly personal opinion. There was a ton of mistrust between the different races of the world. Everyone didn't jump to one anothers aid once immediately because it was good vs evil. Elves, Humans and Dwarves had various grudges and differences that kept them apart or even hostile towards one another.

So I think it adds more flavor that there's the potential for "good" factions to get caught up in their own political machinations, be "corrupted" by the power of the ring or what have you.

There is, of course, always the option to utilize a mod that forces alliances, or just play the game in a manner that encourages cooperation between good factions vs. evil factions (i.e. use your own house rules, etc)

[mondpeiler]

I am personally against a forced alliance of the good on the one side and the bad on the other.
the possibility of internal wars should still be given.
but there is a small truth in k/t s post:
"unite or fall"

the problem is: you cannot unite.
the best you can do is to ally with all good factions yourself...
but that does not prevent your allies to turn against each other.

(in my last campaign for example dwarves and dale turned against the silvan elves, although they had huge problems with Rhûn at the same time! a strategically absolutely idiotic move, but well...
I was allied to all three, that didn'T help.)

in "real" diplomacy you could try to convince your allies to reconcile their conflict. (you mustn't be successful, but you could at least try).
in total-war-diplomacy this option isn't at hand.
so there is my question: could it be made perhaps a bit more difficult for factions to attack an ally of their own ally?

(i know this is not anymore subject of the actual thread, but has to do a bit with balance as well)

[Wizad]

Yes I think Harad and Rhun fighting against each other should be a part of the game.

I would like that Mordor doesn't go automatically to war with one of them though. So Mordor stays allied with Harad and Rhun even if one of those attacks the other.

Also does everyone agree with me on the new units part? OotMM should get more Trolls and even AoR Trolls to give the faction more diversity. Darwin also teaches us that in a vast Mountainous range there are bound to be many variations of a species.
Silvan Elves could get another AoR heavy archer only recruitable in Lorien.

[DrDragun]

On OotMM, I agree on having another troll variant. Whether armored version or rock thrower, either one would be cool. A heavy warg would be cool too or perhaps the occasional mounted general. I think there is also room for another infantry upgrade which wouldn't destroy the flavor too much (we can't have goblins strong enough to take on Uruks and Men one-on-one). That would be a unit that runs faster and actually has some stamina. Perhaps it could have higher quantity than halberds/heavies. Ideally the biggest buff to goblin infantry would be pathing and stamina. They are tired after just 1/4 map jog. Just my 2c

[Shiftehh]

I am a role-playing type of guy. I made some adjustments of my own in my Rhun campaign:
- Added two new Hidden Resources: "Rhun" and "Khand"
- Variags are from Khand, so they can only be recruited in the Khand provinces ( Upper Khand and Lower Khand)
- The dragon regiments are only recruited in the far east (The Rhun Province, with the city of Rhomen)

This adds balance to the game for the AI as well, because if they want to fight with Variags in their army, they have to pull them all the way up from Khand. The "lesser" and more common units are recruitable everywhere with the needed baracks/stables.

I agree with this thread and took measures of my own, thought I would share my idea.

[Wizad]

@DrDragun yeah a rock thrower troll is possible. Any lore expert here that can give us additional information on trolls in general?
Heavy Warg units are against the lore according to Macilrille. Also I like the fact that the nothern Orcish cavalry is very light. Adding a heavier Warg might be an idea for Isengard though.
Heavier melee infantry for OotMM would nullify the faction a bit IMO. But I was thinking about a way faster very light infantry. It would be like Snaga Skirmishers but melee and way faster, maybe also give them like 1 armor and 1 defense skill. That way you can force archers into melee. I feel like OotMM definitely needs an early anti-archer unit.

@Shiftehh nice that sounds like what I meant. But I think we should go more extreme with it. As I understand, Rhun was a confederation of clans and Harad was an empire. Right now Harad plays like a confederation of pirates and desert spearmen, and Rhun plays like a centralized empire having its strongest units available everywhere (the tier 1 Balchoth Tribesmen and the Dragon regiments).

What do you guys think about another archer unit for the Silvan Elves, only recruitable in Lorien? Silvan Elves and OotMM are the factions that need some new variations the most at the moment.

[mondpeiler]

after the hig-elven-release there is currently working-process on the silvans, I heard...
I don't know if this info is till right. I hope as well that there will be some AORs for Lorien - an archer-unit would perhaps be the first logical choice.

and for rhûn and harad: Wizad is right, they act a littlebit the way round like they should.
the haradrim look much more tribal atm, except the serpent guard.
the factor is the huge differentiation in the unit-roster. the muhads, the southrons, the trolls, (then as an extend teh corsairs) look all verry different - like different tribes...

while Rhûns tiers have all a kind of corporate design. the clansmen all the same and later the golden troops. the only ones who fall through the cracks are the balchoth tribesmen.

EDIT: but I've to admit, that I like the golden rhûn-troops...

and this is nothing about balance anymore

[Wizad]

Well giving Rhun more of a confederate style will balance the Rhun AI I believe.
Also OotMM getting new trolls and a fast melee snaga will balance the faction as it is currently the most difficult faction to win battles with.

[DrDragun]

I like the idea of the Snaga Zergling. They fill SOME of the missing problems in the orc early game. You at least have a flanker for open field archer killing (Wargs train slow). The other big problem is town fighting. The orcs simply don't have a unit dense enough to push down a street and win. This leads to painfully long battles even if you win economically. The enemy Beornings/Spearmen/Axemen are not going to rout either, since they are getting a lot of kills you are going to have to grind through the whole unit. And you can not get density of fire because Snaga javelins take an entire street for 1 unit. I suppose this is the nature of the orcs pre-troll game though. Push cannon fodder down the streets until all of the enemy dies. It would probably be against their nature to have a dense power unit too early.

[fightermedic]

my submod does many of the things you requested, maybe you can see if you like it
it's not perfect yet but i will improve it further!
many new (and some old) AOR units and Rhun has a harder time too

[Wizad]

@fightermedic
Well I'm still busy with my current campaign.
For some reason submods tend to bug out a bit on my computer, but thanks anyway. My aim is to establish some good suggestions so the next patch will be another major improvement.

@DrDragun

Well an early dense Orc unit does not seem like a good idea. Orcs get halbards late which are enough for them. A zerglin-ish unit would help the Orcs early in field battles. Just something to surround the enemy with like in SC2. The unit shouldn't do a lot of damage, it's just there to force the enemy into melee.

[Rhaenys Targaryen]

Industrialising Isengard more would be very nice, but when I played as Rhun what really annoyed me was when Dale used spam as a last resort, my money was sky rocketing above 100000 as the richest factions, I had 4 armies marching towards the lands of Dale to finally destroy them and they went mad spamming me with Rivermen, they weren't hard to take out but there was so many of them that simply kept popping out, they were quite annoying to be honest..