Something we haven't think about yet....

[Lord Baal]

I think it's fortunate... It feels like a cog setting itself for the first time in 25 years of clumsily grinding against the rest of the machine. And it just suits perfectly with the epoch.

Of course I'm talking about the transport capacity of ships. And it's because, in the first time in the series, they are pushed, no, forced to finally take this seriously. Why you may ask? Think about it again? Aren't we getting true naval landings this time?

So think again, how would it look a naval assault where an entire legion disembarks from a single Bireme? If you can't picture such grotesque scene, it would go something along this lines:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And I don't think CA would risk to pose as that overlooking this. No, this time, my intuition says we will have to form up truly mighty fleets to back up our plans of conquering beyond the sea horizon.


Omnes puppem! Deinde statur, Carthaginem!

At the begging I say it's fortunate. This is because in this precise period war ships and transport ships where the exact same thing, so both historical accuracy, common sense and gameplay can live in a happy, backstabbing free, triumvirate environment on this regard. And at least for me, this has been something specially annoying.

So, unless there's a completely change on this aspect of the game during development or a horrible zombie apocalypse begins (something that even being pure fantasy still feels awfully close this days), there's no other direction for me but towards happiness on board of a mighty Roman Trireme!


I'll see you all on the other side of the sea marines!

[Meraun]

True! I guess there will be transportships and ships for battles.

wondering how this is gonna work in open Sea battles.

Also, an Transportship woud be kind of impossible to board.... since there are so many Troops on it. plus the Crew

[dom385]

Or they'll just make it so you can only put 1 unit onto a campaign map "fleet" for every boat thats in the fleet.

[dheta]

You do realise that there will be many ships in just one unit right? and of cause a whole legion wont be in a single ship they will be transported over many ships or maybe just one unit and of course they will have to set a limit too the number if units that can be transported at a time depending on the size of your fleet. though i might have just misread your post?

[Lord Baal]

You do realise that there will be many ships in just one unit right? and of cause a whole legion wont be in a single ship they will be transported over many ships or maybe just one unit and of course they will have to set a limit too the number if units that can be transported at a time depending on the size of your fleet. though i might have just misread your post?

That was with me?

Anyway, if sea units now have several ships, it's better! What I want to be over now, and never see again, is those stacks of doom embarked on a single pedal boat. It was inaccurate, unrealistic and annoying. And before anyone says the word abstraction! let me ask you this:

You embark an entire army (around 10k people + supply and animals)on a single small boat. Let's run with "abstraction" for a while.

Your lonely boat of doom is intercepted by another lonely boat of the same class, here the chances are pretty much 50/50. You win, nothing happens.

If you loosed, that single small enemy boat, with probably no more than 50 people on it, somehow managed to burn down and sink an "abstract" fleet capable of carrying 10K, plus equipment and supply? And don't dare to mention "they are civilian ships". Perhaps they were civilian ships, but filled with 10K soldiers, that somehow got raped by less than 50 guys? And how many ships exactly would be needed to transport that many people? They all would get subdued by a small boat?

That's was plain stupid and the proof that there where no such "abstract" fleets, ever, they where all on the same freaking boat.

And thats was just abhorrent.

Now, they can't have that luxury, unless they want clown ships where thousands of troops pop out endlessly. They now can, and should cap the transport capacity of ships in a realistic and practical way.

More Info here.

[Pheidippides]

I think there will be effectively two categories of ships- battle ships and transports. All can hold troops. Transports, however, don't have any ranged weapons like catapults and might be slower. So a lone transport with 100 legionaries on it will still be vulnerable in a one-on-one fight with a battle ship as long as the ship stays away.

However, 5 transports can defeat a battle ship by being able to board and overwhelm the crew. Therefore, a big enough fleet of only transports can survive encounters with small fleets of a few ships. Maybe there will be super fast ships that can ambush a sink a ships in a large convoy of transports, reducing the size of the enemy army trying to land. This would REALLY make strategy for smaller, port nations better, since investing in a fleet would even the playing field against factions with more manpower. You could attack the enemy fleet as it sails to your shores, or perhaps send faster ships to destroy smaller enemy reinforcement fleets or below-strength units returning home. However, large armies on transports won't be vulnerable to a single bireme.

[Lord Baal]

large armies on transports won't be vulnerable to a single bireme anymore.

There, fixed for you.

[hagagaga]

I think there will be effectively two categories of ships- battle ships and transports. All can hold troops. Transports, however, don't have any ranged weapons like catapults and might be slower. So a lone transport with 100 legionaries on it will still be vulnerable in a one-on-one fight with a battle ship as long as the ship stays away.

However, 5 transports can defeat a battle ship by being able to board and overwhelm the crew. Therefore, a big enough fleet of only transports can survive encounters with small fleets of a few ships. Maybe there will be super fast ships that can ambush a sink a ships in a large convoy of transports, reducing the size of the enemy army trying to land. This would REALLY make strategy for smaller, port nations better, since investing in a fleet would even the playing field against factions with more manpower. You could attack the enemy fleet as it sails to your shores, or perhaps send faster ships to destroy smaller enemy reinforcement fleets or below-strength units returning home. However, large armies on transports won't be vulnerable to a single bireme.

Most warships didn't hold weapons either. There weren't that many quinqueremes and anything smaller relied on ramming.

[Biggus Splenus]

Such a great point raised, I thought about this years ago but forgot about it, and now you have shared it to everyone, thanks mate

[PointOfViewGun]

I think it's fortunate... It feels like a cog setting itself for the first time in 25 years of clumsily grinding against the rest of the machine. And it just suits perfectly with the epoch.

Of course I'm talking about the transport capacity of ships. And it's because, in the first time in the series, they are pushed, no, forced to finally take this seriously. Why you may ask? Think about it again? Aren't we getting true naval landings this time?

So think again, how would it look a naval assault where an entire legion disembarks from a single Bireme? If you can't picture such grotesque scene, it would go something along this lines:

Actually, a single ship carrying the whole army was never the idea. The idea was that the army is carried by transport ships while the only ship that gets involved in combat is the trireme kind of ships. Those transport ships are merely part of the upkeep cost.

[Lord Baal]

@ Splenyi, your are welcome pal!

Actually, a single ship carrying the whole army was never the idea. The idea was that the army is carried by transport ships while the only ship that gets involved in combat is the trireme kind of ships. Those transport ships are merely part of the upkeep cost.

Yeah, that was the "idea". In practice, not so much.

The trouble is in my example, if by chance your "escorting fleet" is sunk by a sinlge, small boat, then explain to me how that single, small boat would manage to sink a whole transport fleet filled with troops. Specially true in ancient times where naval combat was often an extension of land combat.

[PointOfViewGun]

Yeah, that was the "idea". In practice, not so much.

The trouble is in my example, if by chance your "escorting fleet" is sunk by a sinlge, small boat, then explain to me how that single, small boat would manage to sink a whole transport fleet filled with troops. Specially true in ancient times where naval combat was often an extension of land combat.

Of course it has problems but I think it's simply ignored as they don't see it as an important problem.

[bartozer]

The thing is that a unit never was one ship. You know how we get unit cards and it has a number which stands for how many men there are in the unit, this is the same with ships, a little unit card of for example a Trireme with the number 40 meant there were 40 Triremes in that unit so if you had 4 of those Trireme units that meant you had 160 Triremes in that particular fleet. The fleets were represented by a single ship on the campaign map just as entire land armies were represented by a single General or Captain this didn't mean that only one person would be fighting though.

[Destraex]

I am actually hoping to be able to ambush enemy fleets that are beached for the night.

P.S. Where is that picture of the ships from?

[weirdoascensor]

From a Thread made by myself:

Lessons From Shogun 2 need to be held in importance to develop the new Rome 2 naval aspects. Some that crossed my mind:

Naval Battles:
-The ability for 2 ships at once to board a bigger enemy ship from both side.
-Ballista-armed ships be able to cast grappling hooks farther, thus making boarding attempts less frustrating
-ships should be able to shed grappling hooks after certain time, making chances of escape possible
-The Possibility of oars be broken during battle, and oarsmen killed - they are not driven by motors - killing mobility
-how many ships a armada has?

The Inclusion of Amphibious Assaults opens up new things to discuss:

-Would the AI do commerce raiding, ala Fall of The Samurai AI (annoying, but challenging) - AI attacks undefended ports, bombard, and run away(maybe landing a small raiding party to wreak more havoc and pillage for gold)

And Also...This leads to the discussion over...

NAVAL TRANSPORTS

You Know What I Mean....

this is tied to the question : "what consists an armada?". and The Fact that now units trained by the legions.

So this hopefully averts "The Carthaginians Stuff Their Elephants with Their Entire Army into a Bireme" Problem...

Next Questions:

Would the transported units be represented in the ships itself - no abstractions possible: if Naval Battles and Land Battles is one and the same, the marines in your ship would be assisted with the unit it transports!

But Oared Vessels arent the best Transport...Landing Craft, yes, very suitable...but not transports...not mentioning Cavalry and Elephant Units...

The most suitable transports would be the more efficient Sailing Ships.

Discuss.

It is stated that fleets are commisioned just like Legions, that its not consisted of only one ships; the stack represents the whole fleet.
But i suspect the system for fleets would be less rigid than Legions...maybe ship transfers would be possible?

Well...CA promised us for bigger battles...that includes number of ships in the map at once...

[That or the transports will be attached with the warships so when the battle appears the legions will be in their own separate transports which you have to protect and escort them to the beach.]

Interesting...That would be a possibility,as fleet system looks represents the whole unit, auxiliary ships included...

Anyway, boarding a ship carrying Battle-Hardened Crack Elite Legionnaires do not sounds like a good idea for the boarding marines...

[Hikaru Genji]

Great idea Lord Baal -- That's always bugged me as well. The "invisible" transport ship idea becomes even more ridiculous too when you consider S2, as Japanese naval warfare was basically ships linking together to form platforms for melee combat. Let's hope that this sort of idea really is implemented.

[Greve Af Göteborg]

Just put a transport limit on your fleets based on the number of ships you have in the fleet and what type of ships you have (larger ships should be able to carry more units).
This should be presented as a number when you select your fleet, example: 0/40, where the latter number is the limit.

[MathiasOfAthens]

Obviously, with naval battles navies with units on them would sink their enemy ships with just sailors and a few marines. But generally I think in RTW and M2 the numbers on the unit card like 12-30 meant how many ships were in the fleet. Like the numbers on land units cards so there you go. Its not a single ship.

[weirdoascensor]

The thing is that a unit never was one ship. You know how we get unit cards and it has a number which stands for how many men there are in the unit, this is the same with ships, a little unit card of for example a Trireme with the number 40 meant there were 40 Triremes in that unit so if you had 4 of those Trireme units that meant you had 160 Triremes in that particular fleet. The fleets were represented by a single ship on the campaign map just as entire land armies were represented by a single General or Captain this didn't mean that only one person would be fighting though.

Obviously, with naval battles navies with units on them would sink their enemy ships with just sailors and a few marines. But generally I think in RTW and M2 the numbers on the unit card like 12-30 meant how many ships were in the fleet. Like the numbers on land units cards so there you go. Its not a single ship.

bartlozer, Matthias,

Maybe you havent played the latest TW games...Post M2TW there are naval battles, and R2TW certainly have those...there wouldnt be any abstractions possible...

But what you two saying are probably right: If R2TW have a new stack recruitment system, then we'll commision an entire fleet, rather just a ship.

[Keyser]

@Bartozer

The number on the unit cards in previous TW games (even the oldies) was the crew, not the number of ships.

@Weirdoascensor

I am pretty sure i've read in one of the preview that the ships recruited in Rome 2 will be in fact a squadron of ships, unlike what was the case in the previous games.