Has anyone done a comprehensive study of time between volleys for missile units?

[Maklodes]

I'm just curious: is there a study of how long it takes from one volley to the next for peasant archers, longbowmen, peasant crossbowmen, pavise crossbow militia, arquebusiers, cossack musketeers, bronze chevron, silver chevron, gold chevron, etc?

If so, anyone have a link?

If not... maybe I'll work on it a little later when I have some more time?

[shikaka]

I think there isn't any, but the general guideline is that
archers > gunpowder > crossbows
(in order of speed)

[eXistenZ]

I think there isn't any, but the general guideline is that
archers > gunpowder > crossbows
(in order of speed)

Sure about that? I once had cannons, and i found them reloading for ages.

Anyway im pretty sure your battle advisor once said that flaming arrows take longer to reload

[shikaka]

Sure about that? I once had cannons, and i found them reloading for ages.

Anyway im pretty sure your battle advisor once said that flaming arrows take longer to reload

I was thinking of muskets, which are faster then crossbows.
I forgot about siege equipment.

[Aeratus]

The reload rate is in the stats files, I think.

[PapaRosario]

The reload rate is in the stats files, I think.

Which stats files? It's not located in EDU or descr_projectiles.

[Aeratus]

Yeah, it's not in the stat text tiles, so nevermind.

[Sitalkes]

There have been two comprehensive guides done, one for TATW, and one for M2TW. They have been combined here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=375398

[Aeratus]

That's a comprehensive general guide, but it doesn't have data on the reload and rate of fire.

The rate of fire is probably an inherent value of the animation. The text files only list the animations names, but not the attributes of the animations.

These are the animations that are listed in the battle_models.modeldb file:

MTW2_HR_Crossbow (mounted crossbowmen)
MTW2_HR_Bow (horse archer)
MTW2_Fast_Bowman (example: Peasant archer)
MTW2_Bowman (example: Janissary archer)
MTW2_Pavise_Crossbow
MTW2_Fast_Crossbow (example: peasant crossbowmen)
MTW2_Crossbow (unused)

[Sitalkes]

I assume you have seen the TATW guide? They may not tell you how long each volley takes but there are tests and comparisons of the effects of different types under different conditions

[Maklodes]

That's a comprehensive general guide, but it doesn't have data on the reload and rate of fire.

The rate of fire is probably an inherent value of the animation. The text files only list the animations names, but not the attributes of the animations.

These are the animations that are listed in the battle_models.modeldb file:

MTW2_HR_Crossbow (mounted crossbowmen)
MTW2_HR_Bow (horse archer)
MTW2_Fast_Bowman (example: Peasant archer)
MTW2_Bowman (example: Janissary archer)
MTW2_Pavise_Crossbow
MTW2_Fast_Crossbow (example: peasant crossbowmen)
MTW2_Crossbow (unused)

I think there must be some differences hidden there. I've read that Genoese crossbow militias/crossbowmen shoot faster than regular pavise crossbow militias/crossbowmen, but I think they all have a fire_delay of 18. Unless, I don't know, the "hardy" trait makes the Genoese shoot faster, or the sources I've read about Genoese being quicker reloaders is just misinformation.

I guess I'll have to test to be sure, though.

[Aeratus]

I only saw one type of pavisse crossbowman animation in that file. If that is true, since the Genoese crossbow militia uses the MTW2_Pavise_Crossbow animation, it should have the same speed as any other pavisse crossbowmen (since the firing delay is identical for all ranged units). Hardiness would affect how fast the units get fatigued, but it wouldn't determine the firing speed when the units are fresh.

I think the interesting question is the difference in speed between Bowmen and Fast_Bowmen, and bow vs. crossbow.

[Maklodes]

Well, I finally did some of this, with a stopwatch and such. I set these units up on the grassy plains map, facing a Papal great cross. I'm not an expert at this stuff, but this is my attempt.

Bows:
MTW2_Fast_Bowman (non-flaming ammunition): Sicilian Muslim Archers: 10.9 (11.51, 21.82, 34.08, 44.52, 54.80, 65.34)
MTW2_Fast_Bowman (flaming ammunition): Sicilian Muslim Archers: 20.7 (21.37, 41.44)
MTW2_Bowman (non-flaming ammunition): Venetian Archers: 11.6 (12.68, 22.64, 36.11, 48.31, 58.07)
MTW2_Bowman (flaming ammunition): Venetian Archers: 20.7 (21.53, 41.33)
MTW2_HR_Bow: Byzantine Skythikon: 11.7 (10.97, 22.32, 35.15)

Remarks: Time between volleys for archers is about 11 seconds. It's more like 21 seconds for flaming arrows. I'd write off the differences to noise.

Crossbows:
MTW2_Pavise_Crossbow: HRE Pavise crossbowmen: 17.8 (18.24, 35.07, 53.53)
MTW2_Fast_Crossbow: Moorish ME Peasant Crossbowmen: 17.8 (19.14, 35.30, 53.58)
MTW2_HR_Crossbow: HRE Mounted Crossbowmen: 14.3 (14.44, 28.57, 43.04)

Remarks: Foot crossbowmen take a little under 18 seconds between volleys. Interestingly, cavalry crossbowmen are quicker -- only taking about 14 seconds between volleys. Perhaps this is because cavalrymen are intended to be using weaker crossbows (the strongest cavalry crossbow (Granadine Xbow Cav, at 7 damage) is weaker than the weakest infantry crossbow (peasant/militia crossbowmen at 9 damage). A bulky windlass can't be used on horseback, so horsemen by necessity use goats foot levers and such, packing less punch but being quicker to reload. Although their animations actually still show them using a cranequin or something. It could just be a quirk of a quirky game, of course.

Guns:
MTW2_Handgun: HRE Hand gunners: 11.2 (11.64, 24.52, 34.21, 45.68, 56.31)
MTW2_Fast_Arquebus (countermarch fire/skirmish off): English arquebusiers: 36
MTW2_Fast_Arquebus (rank fire/skirmish on): English arquebusiers: 28
MTW2_Fast_Musket (countermarch fire/skirmish off): Spanish musketeers: 31.3 (29.68, 62.60)
MTW2_Fast_Musket (rank fire/skirmish on): Spanish musketeers: 26 (25.97, 52.01, 85.85)
MTW2_HR_Pistol: HRE reiters: 14.1 (12.88, 29.55, 42.01, 54.73, 69.58, 84.70)
MTW2_CR_Arquebus: Moorish Camel Gunners: 13.4 (11.68, 23.21, 36.41, 50.37, 66.23, 80.63)

Remarks: I suspect that the arquebus/musketeer difference is noise, but I'm not totally sure. I tracked the volleys for arquebusiers and musketeers for individual ranks, not the combined unit (i.e., front rank fires, back rank fires 15 seconds later, and front rank fires 15 seconds after that counts as 30 seconds in my book). Skirmish mode/rank fire seems to be slightly more efficient than non-skirmish mode/countermarch fire. I think they probably both take a little more than 30 seconds per volley with countermarch firing and a little less with rank firing. I wasn't able to get a second volley off for hand gunners or reiters, so I couldn't really establish times. Maybe it could be done by having a blocker unit, but maybe I'll try that later. I tracked hand gunners and reiters using armored sergeants as a blocker -- they both showed impressive rates of fire. Camel gunners, reiters, and hand gunners all seem to fire in a continuous stream, not really coherent volleys. I ended up tracking a single soldier from each (e.g., look at one camel gunner, and clicking the stopwatch when he fired his jezail). Camel gunners put out a remarkable amount of firepower, since they don't do fire by rank nonsense and reload quite quickly (perhaps almost as quickly as archers). I think reiters and camel gunners are probably close enough in fire rate for the difference to be noise. Hand gunners may be the quickest-reloading of the gun units.



Javelins:
MTW2_Fast_Javelin: Spanish almughavars: 20.3 (19.03, 40.83, 60.71, 81.26, 103.55, 121.9)
MTW2_HR_Javelin: Spanish jinetes: 7.9 (8.32, 15.66, 23.84, 31.42, 39.49, 47.62, 54.92)

As with hand gunners and reiters, I couldn't get clear numbers for javelins, since I couldn't really get a second volley. For jinetes, I used a heavily armored spear militia as a blocker to the great cross. Jinetes throw their javelins at a very rapid rate -- about one every eight seconds. That's only good for sustaining about a minute of throwing, but what a devastating minute that is! Almughavars... confused me. I had some Spanish and Portuguese almughavars face each other. The rate of throwing was very slow (about 20 seconds per volley), but moreover, the almughavar seemed to carry about 20 javelins each. I'm asking about that elsewhere. If foot javelinmen shoot slower than crossbows, in addition to having worse range, then their utility really seems questionable.

I'll see about ballistas, trebuchets, serpentines, etc, at some point in the future.

[Maklodes]

Ballistas, catapults, and trebuchets done!

Ballista (non-flaming): 17.7 (17.56, 35.23, 52.96)
Ballista (flaming): 17.3 (17.60, 34.75, 57.98)
Catapult (non-flamming): 20.3 (20.49, 40.84, 60.87)
Catapult (flaming): 20.1 (20.23, 40.37, 60.24)
Trebuchet (normal): 29.0 (29.65, 57.96, 86.52, 116.02)
Trebuchet (flaming): 28.8 (29.32, 57.74, 86.27)
Trebuchet (rotting cow): 28.5 (28.72, 56.92)

Remarks: I think there's no difference in volley rate based on ammunition mode for these bits of artillery. Ballistas basically shoot at a rate equivalent to infantry crossbows. Catapults are a little slower -- a little like infantry javelins (why infantry javelins have such a slow animation is a mystery to me). Trebuchets are slowest, with about the rate of musketeers/arquebusiers.

[Rockrocks]

You can find the Export_descr_unit.txt it has the delay written down after every unit.
A delay of 0 means no time wasted between two fireing movements.
A crossbowman had a delay of 18. which means 1.8 seconds

[Aeratus]

You can find the Export_descr_unit.txt it has the delay written down after every unit.
A delay of 0 means no time wasted between two fireing movements.
A crossbowman had a delay of 18. which means 1.8 seconds

The delay value specifies the time between successive iterations of the animation, but it doesn't tell you the time length of the animation itself (which varies depending on the type of animation).

Also, in vanilla, all units have an identical delay value of 25.

[Rockrocks]

The delay value specifies the time between successive iterations of the animation, but it doesn't tell you the time length of the animation itself (which varies depending on the type of animation).

Also, in vanilla, all units have an identical delay value of 25.

The identical delay valueof 25 you're talking about is melee delay value, which hold correct for both melee and missile troops. The fire_delay line refer to missile units, and is different for different units.

[PapaRosario]

The identical delay valueof 25 you're talking about is melee delay value, which hold correct for both melee and missile troops. The fire_delay line refer to missile units, and is different for different units.

But the point is that it only tells you the delay between doing the animations. It doesn't tell you how long the animations of firing actually take.

[Rockrocks]

The delay value specifies the time between successive iterations of the animation, but it doesn't tell you the time length of the animation itself (which varies depending on the type of animation).

Also, in vanilla, all units have an identical delay value of 25.

The identical delay valueof 25 you're talking about is melee delay value, which hold correct for both melee and missile troops. The fire_delay line refer to missile units, and is different for different units.

[PapaRosario]

I just tried a very rough test with only one trial of each. First was Genoese Crossbowmen vs. Town Militia on Grassy Plains. I left them in their default spawn position and let them keep shooting until the town militia made melee contact. They were on auto fire and they were not firing at the very beginning, so they were able to utilize their full range of 160 in order to get off however many volleys they could. They were just able to get off their 4th volley just before the town militia charged. I tried the same thing out with Pavise Crossbowmen (who also have a range of 160) and I got the same results. They were just barely able to get off their 4th volley before the Town Militia charged.

Obviously this isn't exactly conclusive because I only did one trial of each. But if Genoese Crossbowmen are actually faster reloaders, it doesn't seem like they are significantly faster.