If Byzantine empire survived till modern day

[templar54]

In other topic which got sidetracked people started discussing how Byzantine empire would look like in modern day what effect it had on history etc. Someone mentioned that this topic is worthy of seperate thread so I decided to give it a go. Since my knowledge of Byzantime empire limits to wiki I will rather read intelligent people thoughts then create my own unresonable speculations. So what do you think?

[Sir Walter]

It would probably have slowed down and become obsolete, hidebound by its monastic commitments and other religious problems which would have stalled modernisation in the age of enlightenment, just as the Ottoman Empire did, and then been wiped out later by some rising Asian state like Iran, which would have been free to invade and take over the Turks who (presumably in this scenario) never became a great power, or perhaps been knocked out and split up between European modern powers like Poland-Lithuania was. Sorry to be dismal, hope I count as an intelligent person

[templar54]

It would probably have slowed down and become obsolete, hidebound by its monastic commitments and other religious problems which would have stalled modernisation in the age of enlightenment, just as the Ottoman Empire did, and then been wiped out later by some rising Asian state like Iran, which would have been free to invade and take over the Turks who (presumably in this scenario) never became a great power, or perhaps been knocked out and split up between European modern powers like Poland-Lithuania was. Sorry to be dismal, hope I count as an intelligent person

[templar54]

Well that is what happens when I write on the phone, sorry about that. Since it took me 2 thorough readings to fully comprehend what you wrote I count you as intelligent I doubt they would decline because of religion orthodox and islam were rather different. Since Patriarch was kind of enemy-rival to pope maybe he would even support protestants.

[Paragon]

What would happen is that Istanbul would still be called Constantinople.

But yeah, I think they'd end up dissapearing. Just like the Teutonic Order, now it's an order of peaceful, average monks.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Well, that's a good question and one no one will be able to answer realistically, I'm afraid. It heavily depends from the other states around, but maybe it might have been not too different from modern Greece?
We dunno if the emperors had done better without a fourth Crusade or some of the other major setbacks, probably they could also have lost some land and they would have needed to modernize as all other countries in Europe as well. The Byzantine Empire was condemned to death on April 13, 1204, which is over 800 years ago. This needs someone like Sheldon Cooper to speculate so much and still be convincing

[Paragon]

One of my friend just finished his first yea at the uni studying history and has debeloped a vile hate of history speculators for some reason. Apparently is unprofessional or comparable to fanficton or whatever.

[Henry X]

One of my friend just finished his first yea at the uni studying history and has debeloped a vile hate of history speculators for some reason. Apparently is unprofessional or comparable to fanficton or whatever.

Your friend is an unimaginative .

I'm a history major as well and my favorite part of history is speculating what could have been with what is.

[Kaidonni]

One of the main problems with speculating on the survival of the Roman Empire is that there are infinite possibilities, and since the fall of Constantinople was almost 560 years ago, there is a lot of time to cover. It is realistic to say they were doomed fullstop, and that they could have bounced back and remained a long-standing independent state. It is likely we'd need to go further back than 1453, change something else so that there was a good chance Constantinople didn't fall, which in turn changes other things. Everything and everyone is connected - for all I know, if WWII never happened, I might not exist; my nan and grandad may have still married and had children, but it could have been timed differently and a different person to my dad was the result, and that different 'dad' married someone other than my mother.

[VektorT]

A far more plausible "what if" is if the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian empires hadn't splitted after WW1.
But habe nothing to do with this forum, I think...

[Henry X]

Don't make a strawman like that now. We're talking on the big picture here, not the personal level.

[Kaidonni]

Don't make a strawman like that now. We're talking on the big picture here, not the personal level.

I'm not trying to make a strawman, and I did not mean to put down the thread or anything. I was looking at the finer details, and since this is a discussion about what might have happened, I see no problem with that. Surely there is room to look at both the big picture and focus on specific events? Okay, we can't really focus on specific events that long after the fall of Constantinople because too much would have changed, but we could before to figure out how the Romans could have survived past 1453.

[Raygereio]

Don't make a strawman like that now.

He didn't. A strawman fallacy is the deliberate misrepresentation on one's argument. Kaidonni didn't do that. What he did do was make a good point.

By the time Constantinople fell the Byzantine empire was long done for. They were on a path that lead toward their fall for a very long time. So for the Byzantime empire to be state with stable politics, a solid economy and an effective military arm at 1453, you do need to go way back- centuries in fact - to make that happen.
This survivable Byzantine empire would be completely unrecognizable when compared to the real empire in 1453. Not only that, but the influence of this new survivable Byzantine empire throughout the years would mean everything they touched and influenced up until 1453 would become different and unrecognizable.
Following that, the Byzantine Empire if it survives will continue to touch and influence everything around them, Meaning that most of history after 1453 will become different and unrecognizable as well.

So different and unrecognizable that it really is impossible to say how the "big picture" would look like with a Byzantine empire in present day. There are just too many unknown variables. Sure one can use his fantasy and make stuff up. But then that's all it is: a fantasy, a blind guess.

[Kaidonni]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with imagining the Roman Empire surviving. I was actually trying to say that we need to consider many variables in the process. It's a discussion with great potential, because everyone will come up with different answers, and many of them could be realistic (unfortunately for our timeline's Romans, 'could' - coulda woulda shoulda ).

[RollingWave]

they'll be in deep economic trouble after joining the Euro... oh wait

[Henry X]

Ah, got my poster confused and then made a fool of myself. I apologize.

[Kaidonni]

It's okay. Still, it's a shame you couldn't have gotten me confused with a famous individual - or the Almighty.

[YuriVII]

Well if Byzantines survived it would have a great effect on Russian power. On one hand Russia would be secure on its Southern flank...on the other it would have been hard to galvanize the balkans and Caucuses since there would have been no Ottoman enemy. Maybe Russians would never get Crimea.

[War lord]

Venice would have killed them off instead.

[General Maximus]

If Byzantine survived till today, they would have helped Indian Hindu kingdoms to hold off Islam at crossings at Indus river, and prevent once-rich India from becoming poorer which it is now. They would have commanded respect of whole Europe after renaissance and digging out 10 books of Vitruvius. We would not know them as Byzantines but as Romans, while Istanbul would be Constantinople; Ankara would be Ancyra and such.

They would have attempted a second recovery of Roman lands, while Venice would be in ruins and it's inhabitants getting a very heavy torture.

WW1 wouldn't have happened, and so WW2 wouldn't have happened either.

There would be overpopulation due to people not being killed in world wars, while colonization would/would not have happened.

Modern society would be very intolerant of religions, while there might be occasional civil wars now and then. There would be an Emperor ruling over Europe, and all those American tribes would still be alive.

There would be a good administration based on theme system, while their armies would be very powerful...

Need I go on?