Formations & Mass

[Jungle Rhino]

Does anybody else think that there is a massive opportunity here to really spice up combat by implementing a realistic yet gameworthy formation system?

While the original Rome got a lot of criticism for the similarity of many units i.e. 'blokes with sticks' in various colours there are a huge number of different formations employed during this period e.g.
Hoplite shield wall
Phalanx
Legion manipular (even Testudo!)
Boarshead

Combine that with different values of mass as hinted at in one of the interviews and you could see formations holding/being broken/reforming etc. with the advantage swaying between one side or another in the process. Giving certain troops certain formation options would be pretty interesting - and really provide a role for great alrounders such as Thureophoroi who could happily fight in open, or closed order. Currently these middle weight troops offer no real advantage over proper 'heavy' infantry - other than cost, which is a bit of a shame.

On the topic of mass heavy shock troops and cavalry would have a good chance to disrupt an enemy formation particularly during a charge - while elephants are of course a wrecking ball on legs!!

Of course this type of mechanic would work most effectively if we dispose of the outlandishly high casualty rates we see in Shogun 2. Battles last mere minutes - giving no chance for ANYTHING interesting to develop - it is smack crunch everything is dead 10s later.

Also just a thought - terrain i.e. forests or broken rock could have the effect of disrupting troop formations - making open order troops far more effective in this type of environment (just like real life!)

[Sharpe]

I am all for much lower casualty rates. Nothing annoys me more than seeing a unit "wavering" before they have even charged the main battle line.

[Armatus]

Really formations should be on the army scale, grouping units into a particular pre-set formation (hotkey or UI button) much like you could deploy with in STW.

Not that you still shouldn't have options at the unit level or be able to group and control as you will, it just cuts down the micro when there's little time to be reorganizing in a battle.

For example looking back at RTW we had pre-set formations, double line, single line, wedge, etc, one problem I noted when ordering the double line for example; units would rearrange themselves, criss crossing each other just to form a double line.

I'm not picky, when I want the double line I want it now! I don't need the units to nit pick what spot they should have within it.

[Ichon]

Good ideas but this thread could easily be merged with the other one already going.

As far as formations being army wide that is true but doesn't mean less formation effects at a unit level.

[Armatus]

that's what I said, and yes this topic as well as the countless others could all be merged lol

[Deadly Rabbit]

The cross crossing used to drive me crazy too. I love the idea of unit mass and viable formations. As pointed out above, there has been little point having all rounder medium infantry that can be effective against both close order heavies and loose order lights. The inability to use boars snout or heavy cav wedge effectively has irked me too. I really want to see the grind when phalanx meets phalanx, like an oversized rugby scrum. Casualty rates in shogun were way over the top, we should see lower casualty rates, most non elite non professional units breaking more easily, and most casualties coming during sustained pursuits or due to campaign attrition.

[Armatus]

The inability to use boars snout or heavy cav wedge effectively has irked me too.

Oh man! you hit the nail on the head there! RTW was terrible about this! I can remember putting units in wedge even cav give them plenty of room for the charge and then having them stop dead at the front line of the enemy, the entire wedge getting held up behind a single man at the tip!

What hell is that? now if a unit was holding formation I can see it getting held up, but even when you have an opening the wedge moves very little confusing the hell out of me as to when it would actually be effective in game.

[Ichon]

I've never seen wedge really show much effectiveness in any TW game. Or really any unit formation other than loose formation.

I think there should be small bonus to defense and morale if units retain a formation while infantry and a bonus to charge/morale if cavalry. Archers might get range/rapid fire bonus etc. As long as the bonus are small its not huge deal but cumulatively if formations along a line are broken a good portion of fighting power is lost.

[Armatus]

Wedge was much better in MTW or maybe I'm just being nostalgic, but I can remember the WTF feeling the first time I used it in RTW, and M2 wasn't really any better.

in M2 you'd wedge a cav unit send them in and before you know it they'd be in melee sitting in a wedge form getting killed because their defense is reduced.

[SleepySteve]

Wedge was much better in MTW or maybe I'm just being nostalgic, but I can remember the WTF feeling the first time I used it in RTW, and M2 wasn't really any better.

in M2 you'd wedge a cav unit send them in and before you know it they'd be in melee sitting in a wedge form getting killed because their defense is reduced.

LMAO this was so aggravating!!

[Armatus]

LMAO this was so aggravating!!

I know right? I mean at what point do I switch them back to standard form? did they actually do any damage? sure didn't look like it when I rammed them into a unit and they all just stood there making no forward progress (as one would expect from a wedge formation...).

I think if anything the wedge needs some severe mass tweakage.

[Fallenempire]

dis i like

[Mr. Shaboobies]

Yeah the wedge was terrible in RTW because there was only one guy at the front of the cav at the time of impact. I experimented multiple times and it is much better to have the widest formation for cav because they cause casualties all across the front. Plus the wedge never did what it was meant to: break through a formation.

[♔The Black Knight♔]

I think shogun 2's wedge is pretty good. Then again shogun 2's calvary was about 5 times more dangerous too.