Shogunate and Imerpial?

**scape9819** · June 30, 2012, 07:30 PM

What is the difference between these two? Some people say Shogunate were pro-westerners while Imperialists were no westerners. Others say they both approved of westerners eventually, its just that Imperialists accepted them late. What is the difference between the two's ideology?

**Larkin** · June 30, 2012, 09:04 PM

The Shogun signed a treaty with the Western powers which the Emperor overrode, causing the Boshin War. So Shogun = pro West, Emperor = anti West.

The Imperials obviously won the Boshin War, and came to accept that seclusion just wasn't workable for Japan to progress. So they came to accept the West, just not to the same extent as the Shogun wanted. Japan fought its first foreign war since the invasions of Korea in 1904 against Russia, after signing an alliance with Britain. So you could say that after the Emperor had been in power for about forty years Japan had opened itself to the West.

Then again, in WWII many Japanese soldiers turned away from using guns to using swords. So traditionalist values still continued.

**rekishiotaku** · July 02, 2012, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by Larkin

The Shogun signed a treaty with the Western powers which the Emperor overrode, causing the Boshin War. So Shogun = pro West, Emperor = anti West.

The Imperials obviously won the Boshin War, and came to accept that seclusion just wasn't workable for Japan to progress. So they came to accept the West, just not to the same extent as the Shogun wanted. Japan fought its first foreign war since the invasions of Korea in 1904 against Russia, after signing an alliance with Britain. So you could say that after the Emperor had been in power for about forty years Japan had opened itself to the West.

Then again, in WWII many Japanese soldiers turned away from using guns to using swords. So traditionalist values still continued.

I would like to point out a few problems with this post.
I would say the Imperialist accepted the West far far more than anyone before the Boshin War could have imagined. The Meiji period named for the emperor Meiji was marked by Japan's almost complete Westernization. During the time of 1850 to 1920s the thought was Westernization = Civilization, and Japan wanted to be "civilized." Japanese men wore Western dress, as did Japanese woman, the military looked like any army in Europe, even dietary practices became Western. The famous proclamation by the young emperor Meiji was "I eat meat and drink milk" two things that were unheard of during the Edo period. Milk and cheese were never consumed in Asia, and the Shogunate was extremely Buddhist, as such eating meat was outlawed. The Japanese became to Western by the 1870s, Koreans were horrified, they wrote about how the ancient Asian Japanese are gone, and now there is just Western barbarians who call themselves Japanese. And in fact ideally the Shogunate probably would have wanted to keep the status quo with Japan isolated and Westerners relegated to secluded trading posts, however Perry and the Western military powers at the time forced his hand. He was hardly pro-Western. Its just that even before the war both sides realized isolation was impossible, and the West had much to offer. And more importantly, they saw what was happening to China and they didn't want to get carved up the West.

Also Japan's first full scale war with a foreign power during the modern period was with Qing China, during the First Sino-Japanese war. In which Japan showed to the rest of Asia how China was no longer the center of the world and that Westernization had its benefits. This war gave Japan Taiwan and affirmed Ryukyu as Japanese territory. It also made Korea a full independent nation and began to place it in Japan's sphere of influence which would lead to the war with Russia in 1904.
I would also like to add that the imperialists motto of "revere the Emperor, expell the barbarians" was quickly changed after the Boshin War to "Enrich the country, strengthen the military"

As for the use of Japanese swords during WWII, this has absolutely nothing to do with the Boshin War or the imperialist factions. From around the 1870s to 1930s the Japanese military adopted a western sabres for their military and police. The Shin Guntou, which looks more like a Japanese sword was adopted in 1935 and owed more to the rise of nationalism across the globe during the 1930s. And I wouldn't say the Japanese army shyed away from guns to use swords. During WWII only officers cared swords, the bulk of the military relied on their rifles.

**rekishiotaku** · June 30, 2012, 11:23 PM

It has really nothing to do with pro-Western or anti. To give you a very basic run down. The "pro-Imperialist" factions were basically those factions that actually were against Tokugawa during the battle of Sekigahara in 1600. One reason why for Satsuma (one of the major Imperialists) at least to uphold the seclusion laws was they held a sort of monopoly (although the Dutch were allowed to trade in Nagasaki, in which the Shogunate took a cut) in foreign trade with their tributary the Ryukyu Kingdom. The Satsuma during the 19th century flip-flopped in Okinawa at first promoting Western trade there, but once they felt the Shogunate may become angry they reversed their decision, which resulted in the punishment and death of Okinawan officials following Satsuma's orders. But this shows they were hardly anti-Western.
Like most things the Sonnou joui (order to revere the emperor and expell the barbarians) had less to do with morals and more to do with money and power. The clans that would become the Imperialists had lost prestige during the Edo period, and wanted to get back into power, the Imperial family for their part wanted to return to their status as rulers of Japan. And it should also be noted that both armies used Western technology and hired Western advisers, and that the Imperialists won in large part due to their ability to modernize/Westernize faster.

That said, the backdrop of the Boshin War was the Shogunate's handling of the West. The Shogunate had blocked Japan for more than 200 years, this lead to widespread xenophobia amongst the people, moreover Japan's military by the 1850s was widely outdated and thusly were forced to agree to unequal treaties by Western powers. So the anti-Western animosity was used by the Imperialist factions to legitimize their cause and gain support.
But neither side can be said to be Modern or Traditionalist.

The ideologies were Shogunate = Shogun in Power and his allies in places of prestige, the Imperialists ideology is the Emperor in power and his allies in a place of prestiege. The ideas of democracy both in the cause of Meiji's Japan, or in the ex-Shogunate's Republic of Yezo came later.