shovel as a weapon

[Ovsyannikov]

Can you add shovel as a melee weapon for some russian unit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrenching_tool
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/МПЛ-50

[Ovsyannikov]

as you know all russians are crazy and we have crazy traditions. One of them from 19th century is to kill enemies with a shovel.

[TheRomanRuler]

Perhaps if it would be possible to give unit different weapons, like 1 has shovel, 1 jas musket, 1 has rifle... But I think its possible to give unit only similar weapons, so i don`t support "shovel-squad".

[don_Durandal]

Except it was not just a Russian tradition. Pretty much every belligerent resorted to using sharpened shovels in hand to hand fighting due to their practical ergonomics, heavy hedge and widespread availability; not just the Russians did.
The exception being British and Imperial units since the entrenching tool supplied by the war office just wasn't as adapted for that sort of use; they relied on trench clubs (mass-produced at battalion workshops) and push-knives instead.

All in all a good idea (advocated by General Brewster for a while now), just not only for the Russians.

[TheRomanRuler]

I got idea: Why not give it to conscripts and others who don`t have bayonets sidearm, like skirmishers had swords in vanilla.

[Dan113112]

Well, that isn't necessarily true. British and imperial forces did use clubs and push knives and also shovels. Not as much as other nations but consider that your in hand to hand combat fighting for your life. Your going to use whatever is available to you and that includes your intrenching tool because it has a fairly sharp edge capable of taking someones head off. Even modern armies today are taught in some way to use their entrenching tool as a crude weapon.

[DoogleMcdan]

Every side used the shovel as a weapon. It had less reach but more maneuverability than the bayonet. When a single rifle shot can kill you from even far distances, and your foe can simply pull back his bolt and shoot another, it is not surprising that the average soldier would find ways of overcoming the weaknesses of his battlefield gear. With the bayonet you have a weapon with range, it can easily stab into the backs of enemies who are retreating but can also easily get stuck in their ribs. In order to remove it you would need to swiftly kick your enemy, while holding the rifle so it slides out, which when you are constantly worried about hearing small shells whistling nearby so you can hit the dirt and survive the shrapnel (artillery strikes, of course, happened more often than close combat) it is not very effective, because cover from missiles is more important than the range of your blade. The entrenching tool and combat knives are much quicker but are only better in close quarters (such as a trench or building) were the reach and length of the rifle+bayonet add to it's disability to maneuver. Seeing as close combat generally happened in trench warfare it is no surprise shorter weapons were used rather than long melee weapons that relied formations such as the bayonet. It would be interesting to see how they could implement them if at all without having to use 3 weapons per unit (which I'm pretty sure is impossible on the engine) or separate units, some with bayonets and some with shovels this however would not be very realistic. I hope they will be able to implement them too, seeing as they played a significant tactical role to the common soldier.