Personal health a human right?

[AqD]

One day, the US will catch up to the rest of the developed world and have healthcare as a human right and not a for-profit death machine.

I have seen arguments like this many times here, and never understood why you guys come to believe in things like that...... How can you have a human right that is essentially dependent on others to provide you something? What if there is nobody willing to be a doctor? or no entrepreneur willing to open medicine factory? Should the government force certain people to study medics and force them to work to death? Why should others devote their money and work-time for you? Your life is not priceless to others! In fact it could be absolutely nothing.

And if it's indeed a human right, how much money or resource would it be allowed to take? Assume a child is suffering from some unique disease which would cost half of all health money to cure, should we really want to trade all those money for his life, at the cost of many others' well-being? Or maybe not 1 life for many, but 1 life for 2 lives? Why can't people see the whole idea is ridiculous?

[Trax]

Right to life is a fundamental human right, healthcare is a big part of staying alive.

Also once there is no health all other rights and liberties become meaningless.

[AqD]

Right to life is a fundamental human right, healthcare is a big part of staying alive.

Also once there is no health all other rights and liberties become meaningless.

But it's your health and your life, not others'. You can suffer and die horribly, but even so it has absolutely nothing to do with others, unless they cause it. To ask health-care from the state is essentially equal to ask your neighbors to provide health-care for you, even when they don't know you or they know but hate you, why should it be? Is this not as same as robbery or theft out of hunger?

Also, as I asked, what if there is no doctor? Should the state find someone and force him to be a doctor for others? And how much should he be paid for it? (how can the state even decide that?) And what if I poison myself slowly to ruin my body, would you pay for that too?

[Col. Tartleton]

It's just a fundamental misapplication of what rights are.

Rights are not services. I do not have a right to compel others to action on my behalf.

"I'm invoking my right to a double cheeseburger, large fry, and a medium coke."
"Pro bono?"
"It's my right to eat isn't it? Also I'll take a hot fudge Sunday and as much oral sex as you can provide me until ejaculation according to my interpretation of the pursuit of happiness clause."
"Right away sir."

[Enemy of the State]

Such a right would make people into slaves. For if you have a right to healthcare, other people have to provide you with healthcare. Where is this right if there are no doctors around? Who are you going to punish for "infringing upon your right to healthcare"? A right to life is a different matter, as it merely means others may not act in a way that causes you injury. Nobody has any obligation to act.

[Squiggle]

Such a right would make people into slaves. For if you have a right to healthcare, other people have to provide you with healthcare. Where is this right if there are no doctors around? Who are you going to punish for "infringing upon your right to healthcare"? A right to life is a different matter, as it merely means others may not act in a way that causes you injury. Nobody has any obligation to act.

Not to mention personal health encompasses more than just health care...food...access to gym equipment, time off in order to adequately exercise...

Let me put it this way. If you are against government interfering in the health industry, you must be able to look at someone who is bleeding to death after a horrible car accident, and say "I am fine with you dying, it's your fault you didn't pay for health insurance". You must be able to tell someone who has motor neuron disease "I don't care that you have a pre-existing condition and can't get health insurance, I prefer freedom from coercion to your continued existence". The fact is if charity could make up for those who couldn't be helped for a profit, the government wouldn't be interfering in healthcare in any developed country.

Fallacy.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Fallacy.

I'd like to see our argument that without taxes, people would give even near what they currently pay as tax to charity.

[Vizvii]

Health is a right. Healthcare isn't. I assume you meant healthcare so I voted no. As others have said, healthcare is a service, a very difficult one to provide, so I think it's wrong for somebody to feel automatically entitled to it. As an aside, I think healthcare is an area where an open market works best. It requires a very specialised workforce, and the conditions (hygiene, comfort etc) required by patients are continually evolving. The state should only provide healthcare for those absolutely unable to find help elsewhere (the handicapped, orphans and so on).

[King Gambrinus]

I can't believe something as basic as healthcare for others is demonised by our resident Repubertans. Now I know some of them aren't comfortable with paying for abortions and trivial stuff. But the idea that you need huge sums of money to pay for basic healthcare is disgusting. What makes you think you can just let people go without healthcare because they are poor. You have the right to live and therefore survive.

As for meritocracy, why should the rich fat alcoholic get a spare liver over a poorer yet more healthy counterpart who keeps himself fit? Nonsensical.

[AqD]

But the idea that you need huge sums of money to pay for basic healthcare is disgusting. What makes you think you can just let people go without healthcare because they are poor.

I cannot. I reject the idea of such right because I have no right to intefere with others, to force them to do anything for me, no matter the conditions. They're not in debt to me, nor should they have any responsibility on maintaining my well-being. If I get hurt and I cannot afford to pay for medicine and nobody would willingly help me out, I'd just die.


What makes you think that you can force people to finance your healthcare just because you're poor?

you can't save them all; only government interference in the healthcare industry can.

Which seems to be necessary nowadays. But it doesn't mean you deserve it.

[Yosemite]

I cannot. I reject the idea of such right because I have no right to intefere with others, to force them to do anything for me, no matter the conditions. They're not in debt to me, nor should they have any responsibility on maintaining my well-being. If I get hurt and I cannot afford to pay for medicine and nobody would willingly help me out, I'd just die.


What makes you think that you can force people to finance your healthcare just because you're poor?



Which seems to be necessary nowadays. But it doesn't mean you deserve it.

it's in the society's and the government's interest to have a healthy working population

[Big War Bird]

Illusionist are you prepared to force force people to be doctors and nurses in the same way that we can force people to be soldiers?

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Such a right would make people into slaves. For if you have a right to healthcare, other people have to provide you with healthcare. Where is this right if there are no doctors around? Who are you going to punish for "infringing upon your right to healthcare"? A right to life is a different matter, as it merely means others may not act in a way that causes you injury. Nobody has any obligation to act.

People have an obligation to pay taxes if they use the state's money. That's a condition you accept when you choose to use your state's currency. All this means is that the government should use that money to ensure healthcare for all, however they go about it.

If you want your own anarchist paradise, make up your own currency with some like minded folk.

[Enemy of the State]

People have an obligation to pay taxes if they use the state's money. That's a condition you accept when you choose to use your state's currency. All this means is that the government should use that money to ensure healthcare for all, however they go about it.

If you want your own anarchist paradise, make up your own currency with some like minded folk.

Can I post into a thread without someone going "Taxation isn't theft!"? In absolutely every thread, SOMEHOW I end up defending anarchism, quite frankly it gets boring. I did not bring up taxation at all this time.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Can I post into a thread without someone going "Taxation isn't theft!"? In absolutely every thread, SOMEHOW I end up defending anarchism, quite frankly it gets boring. I did not bring up taxation at all this time.

Let me put it this way. If you are against government interfering in the health industry, you must be able to look at someone who is bleeding to death after a horrible car accident, and say "I am fine with you dying, it's your fault you didn't pay for health insurance". You must be able to tell someone who has motor neuron disease "I don't care that you have a pre-existing condition and can't get health insurance, I prefer freedom from coercion to your continued existence". The fact is if charity could make up for those who couldn't be helped for a profit, the government wouldn't be interfering in healthcare in any developed country.

If you want to call something a right, particularly a service or good, then you have to say you are willing to the use the power of government to compel people to engage in the providing of those items.

Several years ago Finland's nurses went on strike and the government enforced a law to force the strikers back to work. So if you are going to say health care is a right then you have to be willing to force people to be doctors and nurses.

Yes, if it becomes necessary, as not doing it would be far worse.

[Col. Tartleton]

Let me put it this way. If you are against government interfering in the health industry, you must be able to look at someone who is bleeding to death after a horrible car accident, and say "I am fine with you dying, it's your fault you didn't pay for health insurance". You must be able to tell someone who has motor neuron disease "I don't care that you have a pre-existing condition and can't get health insurance, I prefer freedom from coercion to your continued existence". The fact is if charity could make up for those who couldn't be helped for a profit, the government wouldn't be interfering in healthcare in any developed country.

You can't save everyone. By "you" I mean we the people and by "we the people" I mean the government.

I am under no obligation to save someone's life, nor should I be. I am only under an obligation to not take his life.

I am against government interfering in the health industry, so I must be able to look at someone who is bleeding to death after a horrible car accident and say "Even if I choose to help you, you may die." You must also be able to tell someone who has motor neuron disease "Your sickness is not a justification to deprive me of my freedom and happiness, because I didn't cause it. Your right to your life, liberty, and property is not adequate reason to deprive me of my right to life, liberty, and property. Therefore I shall not be compelled to serve you against my will."

Doctors and cops, etc. are sworn to serve because they voluntarily chose to be.

If a cop or a doctor fails to act, all you have to do is take away their badge/license to practice medicine. Problem solved.

[King Gambrinus]

Illusionist are you prepared to force force people to be doctors and nurses in the same way that we can force people to be soldiers?

What?! What kind of stupid argument is that? Strawman?

[Big War Bird]

What?! What kind of stupid argument is that? Strawman?

You seem not to be acquainted with your own arguments. If you claim a positive right then you are in fact claiming the ability to force people to serve you. For example you have the right to a jury trial, when a trial takes place people are forced from their homes and jobs to serve with virtually no compensation. It could be the case that juror are paid handsomely and there could be a class of people that professional jurors. But as the Finnish example shows even willing people can become unwilling and when they do so you claim the right to force them to serve you.

[Yosemite]

You seem not to be acquainted with your own arguments. If you claim a positive right then you are in fact claiming the ability to force people to serve you. For example you have the right to a jury trial, when a trial takes place people are forced from their homes and jobs to serve with virtually no compensation. It could be the case that juror are paid handsomely and there could be a class of people that professional jurors. But as the Finnish example shows even willing people can become unwilling and when they do so you claim the right to force them to serve you.

don't we pay taxes for this right though
it's not entirely free, and they're not serving us for free either
i don't think it's as black and white as "it's a human right" or "it's not a human right"

Condottiere 40K says it nicely

is health care a right? only in a society that can provide the service in the first place, but then is it still a fundamental human right?

[King Gambrinus]

You seem not to be acquainted with your own arguments. If you claim a positive right then you are in fact claiming the ability to force people to serve you. For example you have the right to a jury trial, when a trial takes place people are forced from their homes and jobs to serve with virtually no compensation. It could be the case that juror are paid handsomely and there could be a class of people that professional jurors. But as the Finnish example shows even willing people can become unwilling and when they do so you claim the right to force them to serve you.

So what are you saying, that doctors would be underpaid in a state system? You do realise most doctors and surgeons make their money on the so called luxury operations and healthcare (breast enhancement, etc...). All I'm asking for is that people who can't afford health insurance get proper care anyway to keep them alive as long as possible. Doctors would still be well paid through our taxes ("OMG taxes are evilz lulz") and the minor, luxury healthcare.