With Fire and Sword 2 (Огнем и Мечом (II) 2: Total War ) !!!!RELEASE!!!! v 0.9.2 BETA

[komatozz911]

KamilW, if you want some improvments please show some materials, some proves, not only your own emotions! and why do you think its easy to make models??? 5 minutes of works? LOL!!! i spent minimum 2-3 days to converse COMPLETED M&B model to MTW2!!!! and i would made some models better but its not so easy and some times just impossible!

Mappo, map is not finally complete, its something (Rome for example) depends on gameplay...

[sihill]

Komatozz:
We all respect your job. Your models are great. About color of kontusz decide leader, commander, but often hussars decide about color. You right. But you agree with me: the same red kontusz on all of hussars make this unit more... ehh... sexy. You know what i mean, it looks better with red kontusz. I know maybe it wasnt like that 400 years ago but its only game. We may little cheat the history, for attractive look of mods units.

About flags:
Nice flags was in the TA Total War.In the Swan Knights units. More bit longer, red and it will ideal for hussars.

KamilW:
Dzięki za pomoc, ale narazie zobacze co wywiąże się z tej dyskusji. Moja rada: uspokójmy tą rozmowe z moderami bo się zbyt gorąco robi, a nie chciałbym wojny polsko-ruskiej. Oczywiście przynajmniej nie przed wydaniem moda.

rafalek:
Jeśli strzeliłem w poprzednich wypowiedziach głupotę, to upraszam wybaczenia. Moja wiedza na temat husarii jest przy twojej powierzchowna.
Staram sie nie brnąć bezmyślnie "pod prąd" w tej dyskusji, próbując przekonać całe forum do moich racji, ale nie moge się zgodzić z tobą w jednej kwestii. Mianowicie: po to jest ten temat, żeby można było dyskutować o modzie, wliczając w to modele jednostek i wszystkie inne aspekty tej produkcji. Powinniśmy właśnie wałkować ten temat dotąd aż nie zostanie wyczerpany.

wiciu:
Widziałem i "1612", i "OiM" i muszę stwierdzić, że film Hoffmana nie jest doskonały, ale w tym porównaniu miażdży 1612-stke pod każdym (powtórzę: każdym!) względem. Również jeśli chodzi o militaria, ekwipunek i rekwizyty. O filmie "1612" nie zamierzam się wypowiadać; o takich doznaniach najlepiej zapomnieć.

[KamilW]

why do you think its easy to make models??? 5 minutes of works? LOL!!! i spent minimum 2-3 days to converse COMPLETED M&B model to MTW2!!!!

How can you talk to someone who can't wright nor understand English? I'm asking this question now. I'm going to try in Russian. My Russian is not good, though.
Я не сказал, что вы можете сделать модель в пять минут. Я сказал, что посмотреть на картинку в книге занимает 5 минут. Сейчас понимаешь?

Now, I say we end this discussion. We wait for the release. And then we'll see. Talking about changes won't do any good now, because komatozz clearly said he's not going to change anything now. He can make some changes after release, but not now.

Peace!

[komatozz911]

sihill, do you mean that in one 'company' of hussars was one color of kontusz?

[sihill]

I mean generally commanders says to hussars: "You may wear kuntusz whichever you want". Most husars wear red suits, because of patriotic reasons. You know: "husaria the pride of Poland". Thats was in a state (national) regiments. But in this times in Poland there were a rich noblemans, who need a army. In this private regiments about color of kontusz, kind flags on lances, wings decide this rich nobleman. Often the color of regiment must be like the colors of this rich noblemans crest (shield, arms), but it was expensive. Sry for my english.

rafalek:
Jeśli gdzieś w swojej wypowiedzi popełniłem błąd, czy to z braku wiedzy, czy wystąpiła pomyłka w tłumaczeniu, proszę sprostuj to.

[komatozz911]

Ok)) its clear now))

[rafalek91]

wiciu: za przyznanie się do błędu szacunek, z tym ze nie chodzi mi o to by nie dyskutowac ale by nie walkowac wciaz tego samego
sihil: i total agree with you. colour of clothes under armor depends. for example from owner or region from which originated
komatozzz: i have some questions and proposals: do you can show to us models of generals and capitains?
second thing:wester faction will have some unique units like f.e. hussars for poland?
some proposal: XVII century was age of marcenaries. just look at 30 yares war. there was time, when in sweden army was consisted almost all with marcenaries. what do you thing about marcenary generals with historical names or marcenary cannos with they own comanders?

[komatozz911]

generals not ready yet..

yes, for example sipahi for turks, chambul-bey for tatars... eastern factions have only unique units))) like almost every other factions, exept for western factions, but each of them have unique units...

as for mercenaries we still think about it... first target its make base of mod with not march features... we dont have a lot of peoples who make mod, only 2 persons work permanently...

[rafalek91]

if you want i can give you some example of unique units for western factions with pictures. i can help you with units descriptions if you give me list of units for each factions

[sihill]

Ye, komatozz, if you want help, just write what do you need. 2 people in mod maker team its not many, so we will help you however we can.

[wiciu11111]

komatozz Do you think about some video previev of mod??

[komatozz911]

if somebody do it))

[AppS]

KamilW

Watpie czy ich przekonasz. Probowalem juz ich przekonywac co do kozakow. Wedlug mnie tez nie wygladaja jak powinni wygladac, ale ich to nie interesuje. Serio, poczytaj sobie co wczesniej pisali. Oni uwazaja ze ich modele sa idealne, wszystkie inne modele sa do dupy. No i co zrobisz? Oni maja swoje wlasne rosyjskie zrodla i te zrodla, nie oszukujmy sie , sa najlepsze.

The appearance of Cossacks is based on the modern research of Ukrainian historians and archaeologists, not fantasy artists of the late 19th-early 20th century. So as some in this topic see the Cossacks, more typical of the period of civil war 1917-21

They were peasants (in peace time) and they should wear peasant dresses. Only officers, atamans had beautiful clothes. Most of the cossacks did not. Every film, every book, every painting, every picture proves me right. And if you find a picture with cossacks wearing beautiful clothes, well, be sure they aren't wearing this to go to war and are probably officers of some sort or are registered cossacks.

1652

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[KamilW]

KamilW
The appearance of Cossacks is based on the modern research of Ukrainian historians and archaeologists, not fantasy artists of the late 19th-early 20th century. So as some in this topic see the Cossacks, more typical of the period of civil war 1917-21

Whatever man, I'm done trying to convince you about anything. So what do you have? One Ukrainian source? Oh yeah, they did research, right? Well, if you're smart, you know how 'research' works. Someone finds something, he's done research. Two years later somebody else does some research and says somethings else.

So we're still talking about your sources against thousands of other sources. And yes, your source is the right one. Sure! We all know something about history here, some more than others. I'm not going to pretend I'm a specialist, I'm not. But I know things too and I'm not dumb. Tell me, how come other people agree with me (like the Polish people in this thread) and only you Russians and Ukrainians don't?

I said I was done with the discussion about hussars and cossacks, but hey, if you keep pushing me, I can't shut up. It's my nature.

[Vladyvid]

Cossacks were not all peasant-like, neither were they all like the uniformed ones. There were both kinds of cossacks, and you guys should stop fighting over this issue because you're both right and wrong at the same time. Cossacks were not all the same because of several factors:

- the term Cossack was used regarding to native Ukraininan (among them Zaporozhyan) Cossacks
- the same term Cossacks was used regarding to Don Cossacks (so not Ukraininan, but Russian)
- the same term Cossacks was used within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth regarding light cavalry soldiers and some of them were not even Rus or Ukrainian at all and they were uniformed
- finally the same name - Cossacks - was used within the above mentioned Commonwealth regarding the so called Registered Cossacks who were mostly uniformed as they could afford it

In reality, many of the Cossacks living within the Commonwealth were rich enough to be equal to polish nobility (at least to the lesser echelons) and many were accepted into nobility and given commanding positions equal to at least present day Colonel rank. One of the reasons for the Commonwealth Cossacks to start uprisings was against being treated like peasants - which they weren't. I think the simpliest way to say what was a Cossack would be to call them warriors. Warriors are not peasants - even if they are poor warriors who appear to wear peasant-like clothes. At the same time, what might seem peasant-like for the Poles, might not be peasant-like for Ukraininans, hence the so many misconceptions.

Basicly it was a fact that Ukrainians, Russians, Poles and probably members of a couple of other nationalities living in that area called themselves Cossacks at times, and in present day Poland (I'm Polish so I know) people do call certain persons Cossacks, without having no relation to Ukraine or Ukraininan/Cossack culture, but only to describe that they are brave, perhaps reckless, vigorous, bit 'crazy' but overall it is a term of endearment, a good thing to be called.

I think, or from what I know, to be a Cossack meant to be a free man living in the Ukraine/Rus lands, who was a fighter/warrior.

Long live the Cossack Glory! Pozdravlayu i pozdrawiam.

[KamilW]

Cossacks were not all peasant-like, neither were they all like the uniformed ones. There were both kinds of cossacks,

That's what I've been saying the whole time. Of course there are two kinds of cossacks. The mod team showed us pictures of cossack units, ALL WITH UNIFORMS, and I gave feedback saying that there should also be cossacks who look a bit poorer and wear other clothes. Because the ones I saw in the screenshots looked like an army of clones (exaggeration, I'm aware of that): all the uniform. But the mod team didn't agree and said cossacks looked like in the models and they didn't wear for example baggy trousers or white shirts, nor did they go outside without hat. So that's what I've been saying the whole time. Cossacks are not all the same and they should not all wear uniforms. Damn, does anybody read what I write anyway? I don't think so.

By the way, Vladyvid, I have a question. I know they were warriors, everybody knows that. But how come you read in some books they were farmers during peace time. So? They were, what else could they do? I don't think the only thing they did is fighting and raiding villages the whole time. Many of them were warriors by profession so to speak, but many cossacks were farmers and many of them (not all) only fought when it was necessary or when they were called upon. Right or not?

@Apps

As for the source, it's Polish, you say. Ah well, my bad! It's still one source against so many others. And I'm not going to give you one, because I don't have to. I know I'm right. I've read my share and I know things too. I'm not going to a library right now because you want a source from me. I'm not going to look for one on the Internet too. I don't have to. You know there are many sources that give a different picture of cossacks than the picture in your source. Just type cossack on the Internet and go to a random historical website, you'll see. If you were to take a random book, this book would prove I'm right. Go to the shop, take a random history book about the 16-17th century wars or even a book about cossacks, I don't know. Whatever you can find. And I assure you that book will prove me right. You really think you're clever, don't you?! You think you have a book or source from the 16th century and that source is the best you can get? Why? Because it's from that exact period? If you'd know something about history, you'd know that people not always write or paint things the way they are. People had imagination too in that period. Many old historical sources are not trustworthy because of that fact. So don't think you're right just because you have a source from that period. So, are we done? Several people here say I'm right. Mod teams says I'm not right. You do whatever you want to do, stubborn .

[AppS]

KamilW

So what do you have? One Ukrainian source?

Polish. % )) It`s about Berestechko 1651

and what can you offer in support of your words?
not thousands. enough one source against one source

[Vladyvid]

By the way, Vladyvid, I have a question. I know they were warriors, everybody knows that. But how come you read in some books they were farmers during peace time. So? They were, what else could they do? I don't think the only thing they did is fighting and raiding villages the whole time. Many of them were warriors by profession so to speak, but many cossacks were farmers and many of them (not all) only fought when it was necessary or when they were called upon. Right or not?

Hmm, honestly I don't know about if they were working on their own fields like farmers. Maybe you're right I don't know. I could only say that very poor polish nobility who had no money for servants, worked on their own fields themselves and would be probably seen as peasants by lets say western european nobles. There were even some so poor polish nobility members who had no land at all, called golota (gołota) and they would be by some standards even poorer than peasants. The only thing they had was their identity, which could be similar with some poor Cossacks and their identity as a group of people.

The mod team showed us pictures of cossack units, ALL WITH UNIFORMS, and I gave feedback saying that there should also be cossacks who look a bit poorer and wear other clothes.

The mod team is doing very good work with their models I think, so even if you think they are wrong about something is not more important than the fact that they have done a lot of good work that deserves appreciation. I mean, they might call those poor cossacks you are talking about to be something else, and I think that's ok because the overall result is more important than fighting if a unit should be called cossack or not. They are the mod team and it's their work, their mod. They have a right to do things how they think is best in their opinion, and I guess whether you are right or not you should first respect their own ideas. They know your opinion, so if they like it, or if they think you have some good suggestions then maybe they will consider them, but I think you should stop at giving your opinion and not trying to convince them about something they don't think is right. Sometimes it's better to be wrong for the sake of the bigger picture. This mod team is doing a really good job and I would prefer to be wrong than upset them with a quarrel that seems to have no resolution. Different nations sometimes see certain things differently and perhaps in their perspective what you call poor cossacks, is called something else. You don't have to agree with that, but you should accept their decisions as its their hard work.

[wiciu11111]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR8G3fEEnx4

[AppS]

KamilW

Ah well, my bad! It's still one source against so many others.

Where are they? % ))))
So far I read only does not confirm the opinion, but fantasies.

And I'm not going to give you one, because I don't have to. I know I'm right. I've read my share and I know things too. I'm not going to a library right now because you want a source from me. I'm not going to look for one on the Internet too. I don't have to. You know there are many sources that give a different picture of cossacks than the picture in your source. Just type cossack on the Internet and go to a random historical website, you'll see. If you were to take a random book, this book would prove I'm right. Go to the shop, take a random history book about the 16-17th century wars or even a book about cossacks, I don't know. Whatever you can find. And I assure you that book will prove me right. You really think you're clever, don't you?!

And Khmelnitsky helped the aliens. I know I'm right. I've read my share and I know things too. I'm not going to a library right now because you want a source from me. I'm not going to look for one on the Internet too. I don't have to. You know there are many sources - read the beginning of the book Sienkiewicz - Latem zdarzyło się wielkie zaćmienie słońca, a wkrótce potem kometa pojawiła się na niebie. W Warszawie widywano też nad miastem mogiłę i krzyż ognisty w obłokach; odprawiano więc posty i dawano jałmużny, gdyż niektórzy twierdzili, że zaraza spadnie na kraj i wygubi rodzaj ludzki.


Again, the discussion is good. When there is an exchange of views, basics on fact - it was good. The exchange of fantasies I have already passed several years ago and now it's a waste of time.
It's simple - people put forward the thesis - it proves it. This is the practice of historical science.
Without facts, your post no more than a useless flood non specialist.

You really think you're clever, don't you?!

Yes I am. Some people in certain matters they know more than others. This is normal.

I have a question. I know they were warriors, everybody knows that. But how come you read in some books they were farmers during peace time. So? They were, what else could they do? I don't think the only thing they did is fighting and raiding villages the whole time. Many of them were warriors by profession so to speak, but many cossacks were farmers and many of them (not all) only fought when it was necessary or when they were called upon. Right or not?

I brought you a special picture of the peasants in the previous report. You have a distorted view of the peasants. Less than watch movies and more paintings and drawings 17th century Look again Polish picture "peasant and death"