Suggestions 7.0 Buildings

[Bdunk21]

I was just thinking that it would be good to have more buildings, like for instance population control ones, like in roma surrectum. There aren't enough buildings that increase population. Do farms increase population?

[PapaRosario]

The current population system is done like that on purpose so that it is very, very difficult to reach a huge city or citadel. Increasing the amount of population growth buildings would make it easier, and then the population upgrade levels would simply have to be increased to rebalance for that. So it doesn't seem like there would be much of a point in adding more pop growth buildings.

Yes, farms increase population growth.

[Basileus of Byzantium]

I'd want a more advanced building tree. You require this to build that, precursor building to that, you need this to build that building that can recruit these units, etc. Right now SS still has the simplicity of vanilla.

[Ichon]

There is a proposal to make Church buildings more more central as prerequisites for other buildings in dev forums but there hasn't been alot of interest. Basically in medieval era the Church was the center for alot of stuff. Church would be required to be built before next level of farms or before brewery(brewery instead of bakery) also schools would depend on the level of church as would town halls up until large city at least. There would be a greater differentiation between churches of different religions as well.

[Basileus of Byzantium]

There is a proposal to make Church buildings more more central as prerequisites for other buildings in dev forums but there hasn't been alot of interest. Basically in medieval era the Church was the center for alot of stuff. Church would be required to be built before next level of farms or before brewery(brewery instead of bakery) also schools would depend on the level of church as would town halls up until large city at least. There would be a greater differentiation between churches of different religions as well.

I'm not really sold by the idea, I understand the school part but to have to build the next level of a church to recruit archers, man at arms, and cavalry doesn't make sense to me.

[Bdunk21]

PapaRosario I do see your point about population not many cities had lots of population during that time period historically. But it does get frustrating having to use low tax rates to grow population by 0.5%

Basileus of Byzantium

I do agree with you that there needs to be a bigger more in-depth building tree.

[Ichon]

I'm not really sold by the idea, I understand the school part but to have to build the next level of a church to recruit archers, man at arms, and cavalry doesn't make sense to me.

No one said anything about military recruitment. The Church was central to administration not military. I listed the buildings, townhalls, farms, schools, etc. Nothing to do with military.

[Basileus of Byzantium]

No one said anything about military recruitment. The Church was central to administration not military. I listed the buildings, townhalls, farms, schools, etc. Nothing to do with military.

Weird for some reason I thought you said something like that. Sure I'm fine with the idea but how would it work for the Roman Empire?

[RollingWave]

There is a proposal to make Church buildings more more central as prerequisites for other buildings in dev forums but there hasn't been alot of interest. Basically in medieval era the Church was the center for alot of stuff. Church would be required to be built before next level of farms or before brewery(brewery instead of bakery) also schools would depend on the level of church as would town halls up until large city at least. There would be a greater differentiation between churches of different religions as well.

This is an exellent idea .... though it would require a rather complex preq writing. and seems a little problematic on how to address it properly with say... the Pagan factions.

HURB's build tree is generally inspired by Roma Surrectum already, with a much much wider range of economic buildings and a more sensible recruitment system,

[Ichon]

Some version makes sense for all the factions except pagans but not sure if pagans couldn't also have something to a lower extent. Dealing with only admin buildings should be easier as well.

[certoipus]

Mediaval times where NOT SO THEOCRATIC , to make church so much important building.
Long list of excommunicated kings is an example. There were also civil administration, often more important that bishops and priors.

About buildings: I'm dreaming about option to choose how fast I need the building. Eg:
You can build barrack for 3000 - 5 turns.
But you have 2 more options:
- haste: 9000 / 2 turns
- economic: 1500 / 10 turns.

[brapollo]

Broken Crescent has a superior building scheme. So does Third Age even. Stainless Steel could make a quantum leap forward if first and foremost buildings were more expensive and therefore one needed to think far more strategically about what to build.

[Ichon]

Mediaval times where NOT SO THEOCRATIC , to make church so much important building.
Long list of excommunicated kings is an example. There were also civil administration, often more important that bishops and priors.

About buildings: I'm dreaming about option to choose how fast I need the building. Eg:
You can build barrack for 3000 - 5 turns.
But you have 2 more options:
- haste: 9000 / 2 turns
- economic: 1500 / 10 turns.

Some states were more theocratic than others but that long list of excommunicated kings also ended up almost always agreeing to what Church wanted in the final. Only HRE and England were successful a couple times and France with the Avignon Popes. Also this is on the local level particularly between 1100 and 1250 where most of the royals and anyone in administration was instructed by Monks/clerics as well as most innovations in agriculture came from monasteries, why do you think nobles were so eager to give land to monastery? Because usually that monastery taught the locals better methods and enriched the local nobles. That was true up until 1300s when most kings had more control over their vassals and began to try and centralize, in this the Church stood in their way as the church preferred weaker kings it could manipulate and also by 1300 Church controlled 1/3 of the land in many kingdoms. Having Church required for land clearance and crop rotation along with at least up to city hall makes sense. After that there wasn't a clear link between Church and administration but for the lower leves/earlier years there certainly was a strong link in both Europe and East. Pagans and Orthodox its a bit more difficult but Orthodox had some good influence as well.

[Lord Golog]

It seems sensible to me that the building trees for recruitment buildings could be divided into feudal/local tree and a state/professional tree. The feudal tree could have fewer prerequisites and be simpler but less efficient at getting good troops, as it relies on levying existing warriors and nobles. Later on, a professional tree could become available that has prerequisites like armor makers and weapon smiths but provides reliable source for decent soldiers. At first it would consist mainly of hired mercs but eventually the professional tree would overtake the feudal tree in usefulness around the time when strong state armies were really coming into prominence.

[jado818]

I would like to see more buildings in general ;p

give me an option to build a moat

but something like a brewery/winery or more in depth farming system would be cool.. being able to control which crops are planted on a settlement might be fun for us who like to micromanage @.@

maybe slave pits / traders for appropriate factions .. could possibly increase farm output or decrease construction cost but also increases squalor?

I also think chivalry has too much effect on population growth >_>

[RollingWave]

moat isn't possible at all unfortunately, that's beyond the possibile limits of the m2tw engine in many ways.

but yes, a much more complex economics building system would be nice.

[jado818]

I was thinking about how to implement new buildings in SS and an idea came to me.

Some aspects of upgrading troops / agents might not fit well into a stand alone building.. although it might have to be represented as such in the game.

like say you wanted to make a "building" to upgrade merchants, you could link a building called Economics Wing to a university.. it would be represented as a separate building on the browser but would require the university to build.. maybe you could have it increase finances with a description about advanced training in weights,measures, and various coinage from the known world?

could do the same concept for military academies for more advanced training (archery tournament range for archers or gladiator pit for infantry?)

Could come up with ideas linked to various buildings for other agents as well i'm sure

I think if a system like that was implemented it should have high construction times to limit units becoming overpowered.. but it would be nice for people who want to specialize in certain units or agents

[RollingWave]

I was thinking about how to implement new buildings in SS and an idea came to me.

Some aspects of upgrading troops / agents might not fit well into a stand alone building.. although it might have to be represented as such in the game.

like say you wanted to make a "building" to upgrade merchants, you could link a building called Economics Wing to a university.. it would be represented as a separate building on the browser but would require the university to build.. maybe you could have it increase finances with a description about advanced training in weights,measures, and various coinage from the known world?

could do the same concept for military academies for more advanced training (archery tournament range for archers or gladiator pit for infantry?)

Could come up with ideas linked to various buildings for other agents as well i'm sure

I think if a system like that was implemented it should have high construction times to limit units becoming overpowered.. but it would be nice for people who want to specialize in certain units or agents

except that this isn't a fantasy game, most building had at least a degree of basis in historical reality, what your suggesting does not. if anything the curent recruitment building, still largely based on CA's original onces, is terribly unhistorical, recruitment building should actually be fewer and not more, since historically speaking most of those troops when called all came together, not seperately, the idea that you could only recruit the dismounted version of something or vice versa is not only unhistorical, it's not even logical.


From historical POV, recruitment buildin should essentially be seperated only as.

A. Feudalistic : most common troops from knights to sergeants to tribal warriors etc should belong to this building, a few type of elite units (For example, Turkish Siphais ) may require higher levels but most units should come at level 1. (essentially, this means merging the entire castle recruitment tree into one.)

B. militia : for most factions in the middle ages (not all) , militia were seperated from the general feudal system, so they required a different tree to build, essentilly the current city barracks. this part the CA depection isn't too bad.

C. Professionals : these were relatively rare in the early era, mostly limited to eastern factions, such as Ghulams/Mamluks and Byzantium professional units, essentially these troops are expensive, takes a considerable time to train, but usually good quality troops. The training ground of these units should be very limited outside of the faction's capital.

D.siege : well obviously siege does belong in a seperate tree that is realistic.

[jado818]

I understand where you are coming from with historical accuracy as a basis.. but by the nature of the game itself certain historical timelines shouldn't be followed exactly. the game is historical fantasy by definition.

like a faction that would have been eliminated before late era historically.. should they never be able to get gunpowder units if a player makes them survive that long? I mean at some point any faction would have to realize that guns are being used and acquire them.

I could see how maybe a gladiator pit might not have been the best suggestion.. but there were armor/archery tournaments held in medieval times.. and maybe they weren't that common.. which is why i suggested a long construction time. not that it would take long to build a place for people to compete.. but like any great competition.. it would take time to promote and garner interest.. which could be reflected in a long construction time. could also make retraining take multiple turns to get the extra bonus

slavery for sure makes sense too.. most of eastern europe used slaves and the muslim world.. pretty sure the moors raided portugal a lot for the purpose of obtaining loot and slaves. I think england had slaves to some extent.

didn't the pope have to issue a papal decree to forbid slavery.. or at least limit the sale of catholic slaves to non catholic kingdoms?

could also maybe make some sort of circus arena building.. with some sort of daily/monthly/yearly option? modern circus came about 1300's or 1400's from roaming gypsies (in england i think)..

I'm not gonna go all research paper on it.. but there is some historical basis for my suggestions.

but I do agree that one settlement type would make sense.. and the same about unit recruitment buildings.. I was just suggesting buildings that modified or retrained agents / troops

[RollingWave]

A singular recruitment system has no real need to be correlated with One Settlement Type, one Settlement type is meehhhhhh as well since historically some (hell many) major settlements were a mixture of Castles and cities, large fortress don't exist without a supporting town / city obviously, while if a city is large enough and at risk enough most build a castle either inside or just outiside the city as well.

Engine limit and practical limits dictate that the game can't be 100% historical, but thats no reason to justify blantent fantasy either. I generally feel that the game should be persued with as much historical accuracy as possible within the engine limits. espeically on REALLY obvious stuff. we're not talkign about "what ifs" when talking about recruitment system, there was no what if, we knew that NOBODY trained dismounted knights in a barrack, and that the primary settlement had no impact on the type of units you can recruit, the idea that you can somehow not recruit Knights at Il De France because Paris is a city if obviously hilarious, given that Il de France probably produced more knights than any other region on the map in reality.

Likewise, archers were not "trained" at archery ranges, that simply wasn't true except maybe in the case of Longbowmans, most medieval archers trained by themself hunting stuff for a living, the concept of a archery range would be completely alien to them, some culture (like the Arabs and Turks) had a stronger culture for bows, but they also didn't form official archery ranges, (well the Turks did in Ottoman times but that's another story.) they simply had more folks who practiced by themself or in small groups.

On a general level, I changed Archery Range and Stable so that they nolonger have much to do with recruitment, but does give bonus to Archer / Cavalry type units in experience (so more effective.) . that is far more reasonable. they're no longer a must to get those units, but having them does help making them more effective.