Amy Chua: "World on Fire"

[Kitsunegari]

I hope to get around to reading the rest of this book soon, but in the meantime i wonder what your reaction is to her thesis: contrary to almost dogmatic belief, economic and political liberalization actually leads to social strife in heterogeneous countries. The Chinese diaspora in SE Asia is a prime example, its communities tend to be highly motivated and well-organized vis-a-vis the larger host populations, and consequentially they have come to dominate the financial sector (despite being very small in numbers in places like the Philippines). Understandably this has lead to much resentment between the two groups, and in popular democracies it is very easy for demagogues to gain support by stoking fears of domination by an alien elite. The other obvious example is Jewish history in Europe post-emancipation and the former USSR following that entity's collapse, but there are many others, like Indians in Africa and Christian minorities in the Middle East.

[Dr. Croccer]

I don't think it necessarily relates to just ethnic groups, but social ones as well. In ancient Athens the (Greek) immigrants or metics lacked the rights of the proper citizens, but also did many of the jobs that the native citizens despised, such as trade, and became wealthy as a result, the same processes can be observed in Europe in the late Middle Ages, with the urbanites who descended from peasants often becoming wealthier than the local nobility for which they once worked. I think it's a fairly natural process that occurs in hierarchic and largely traditional societies which have a marginalized minority which uses careers that aren't viewed highly by the natives and become rich as a result.

[Exarch]

can you elaborate a bit more on Amy Chua's thesis please?

[Condottiere 40K]

The indigenous natives envy and despise the Chinese entrepreneurs in equal measure.

[Kitsunegari]

The indigenous natives envy and despise the Chinese entrepreneurs in equal measure.

Pretty much, and there have been discriminatory taxes (eg bumiputera in Malaysia) as well as violent incidents. There is a common perception of the Chinese as a hostile, alien group wielding disproportionate influence, similar to the fears of Jewish financial power in 19th and early 20th century Europe. Also, as the Jews were paradoxically overrepresented in the communist movements in Europe, there is a belief that Chinese were particularly active in communism in SE Asia, so one of the worst atrocities in the 20th century, the anti-communist massacres in Indonesia, was also basically anti-Chinese.

[Dr. Croccer]

Pretty much, and there have been discriminatory taxes (eg bumiputera in Malaysia) as well as violent incidents. There is a common perception of the Chinese as a hostile, alien group wielding disproportionate influence, similar to the fears of Jewish financial power in 19th and early 20th century Europe. Also, as the Jews were paradoxically overrepresented in the communist movements in Europe,

'Paradoxically'. Not really. Simply because Jews were overrepresented as businessmen doesn't mean that all of them were. Especially in countries like Russia, where anti-semitism was blatant, many Jews turned to Communism in bringing them equality. They weren't unique, Caucasians were similarly overrepresented as Bolsheviks, also because of treatment by the Russians.

[Kitsunegari]

'Paradoxically'. Not really. Simply because Jews were overrepresented as businessmen doesn't mean that all of them were. Especially in countries like Russia, where anti-semitism was blatant, many Jews turned to Communism in bringing them equality. They weren't unique, Caucasians were similarly overrepresented as Bolsheviks, also because of treatment by the Russians.

The Russian empire was a very different situation from the rest of Europe: Jews were largely impoverished like everyone else and excluded from the elite of private and public sectors. You are right that members of other minorities were often enthusiastic Bolsheviks, and ethnic rivalries were adeptly exploited: for example, Kaganovich (a Jew) was given command of areas with Cossack populations and he saw it as a chance to settle scores; similarly Stalin was sympathetic to his Georgian and Ossetian kinsmen at the expense of Armenians and Chechens. It was very much a hostile ruling class.

Culturally there is other native culture in Indonesia who have similar attitude about business/money and they roughly achieve similar success, but they have same religion and color skin with majority so they have better fate. Beside culture, color skin and religion is even bigger factor.

Agreed, the Chinese are more easily distinguished, same in Malaysia, however it was my understanding that their success has been greater (or at least more visible) than other such minorities.

you can still retain ethnic identity without having a passport, and given the example of the Xuzhou evacuating Chinese civilians from Libya last year, i think it's a safe bet to assume that China isn't going to stand idly by and allow its own compatriots to get slaughtered and raped, the way they were back in '97. More importantly, the response from the Chinese public would be to take action, the government would be pressured by the public to act, just as the public is pressuring the government to act with respect to Filipino aggression in the SCS.

Part of the reason the anti Chinese riots happened besides the sinophobic racism promoted by Jakarta, was that Jiang era China was relatively helpless in evacuating its civilians. Fast forward to modern day and you have modern frigates and other assorted 'hard power' tools, along with soft power ones that compel Jakarta to be a little more compliant. If anything the example of Indonesian maltreatment of ethnic Chinese (along with other such cases in SEA) justify the massive increases in Chinese military spending.

It was basically supported by the US to a degree as well since Suharto was seen as an ally against communism. In Malaysia there was the de facto segregation and discriminatory taxes, but there haven't been many violent incidents, possibly b/c of his improving relations with China. As for helping protect overseas ethnic Chinese, it seems an understandable development as China develops a more assertive policy in SE Asia, since the entire area is much more interconnected now. In the past Beijing took a lot of heat due to actually supporting the Khmer Rouge, for example, who brutally persecuted Chinese (and every other minority)

[Dr. Croccer]

The Russian empire was a very different situation from the rest of Europe: Jews were largely impoverished like everyone else and excluded from the elite of private and public sectors. You are right that members of other minorities were often enthusiastic Bolsheviks, and ethnic rivalries were adeptly exploited: for example, Kaganovich (a Jew) was given command of areas with Cossack populations and he saw it as a chance to settle scores; similarly Stalin was sympathetic to his Georgian and Ossetian kinsmen at the expense of Armenians and Chechens. It was very much a hostile ruling class.

True, it should also be pointed out that most Jewish communists weren't very Jewish, though neither were their capitalist counterparts. The Communists were largely unashamedly Atheists and had little connection with the Jewish community. There was a flicker of Jewish pride in the USSR after the founding of Israel, much to Stalin's annoyance, but that was it. On the other side, many of the Jews who wanted to integrate in the native elites converted and intermarried, or were very discrete about their Jewishness. Some, like Rathenau, rejected it in favour of nationalism of their country. So both those Jews who wanted to become part of the native elite as well as those who wanted to overthrow it weren't very Jewish in their identity.

[hellheaven1987]

The Chinese case in SEA is largely because cultural difference, which results Chinese became very active to pursue a business career (afterall, it is Chinese tradition to earn as much money as they can) and hence dominates the economical industry in the end. Do Chinese have unfair advantage over natives at beginning? No, but what causes natives losing this competition is because their cultural value prevents them to become actively in business sector, in other words it is the result when native cultural value cannot compete against positive, active foreign cultural value and hence been dominated in the end.

[Exarch]

aye, there have been many similarities made between the experience of ethnic Chinese in SEA and the plight of the european jews; that's why it's important to address movements in the press and otherwise that seek to dehumanise the Chinese as the western world dehumanised the jewish people to the point where an entire country allowed the extermination of jewish people.

Case in point, the Indonesian pogroms against the ethnic Chinese back in the 60s was largely unreported, as were the relatively recent pogroms and rapes against ethnic Chinese in Indonesia back in 96-97 when the east asian financial crisis was raging across the region (ironically it was Chinese policy and money that stabilised the crisis and allowed the region to pull through). Of course the Chinese military is a lot more adept now than it was back in 96, so i'll be incredibly surprised if we see another repeat of that again; evacuations of Chinese nationals would be all the more convenient with a modern large Chinese navy.

[Ak1980]

Indonesia case bit special, the government itself actively and passively promote anti chinese sentiment. It's easier to distract your population by blaming other, to hide corruption in Suharto case or to hide mismanagement in economy in Sukarno case. Also it's hard not to become proficient in business career if you can't become government employee, join army, become doctor, etc2.

@hellheaven1987
Culturally there is other native culture in Indonesia who have similar attitude about business/money and they roughly achieve similar success, but they have same religion and color skin with majority so they have better fate. Beside culture, color skin and religion is even bigger factor.

@Exarch
Chinese who become victim in Indonesia don't have china nationality anymore, if the pogrom happen again, i'm 100% sure china government won't lift a finger to help them.

[Exarch]

@Exarch
Chinese who become victim in Indonesia don't have china nationality anymore, if the pogrom happen again, i'm 100% sure china government won't lift a finger to help them.

you can still retain ethnic identity without having a passport, and given the example of the Xuzhou evacuating Chinese civilians from Libya last year, i think it's a safe bet to assume that China isn't going to stand idly by and allow its own compatriots to get slaughtered and raped, the way they were back in '97. More importantly, the response from the Chinese public would be to take action, the government would be pressured by the public to act, just as the public is pressuring the government to act with respect to Filipino aggression in the SCS.

Part of the reason the anti Chinese riots happened besides the sinophobic racism promoted by Jakarta, was that Jiang era China was relatively helpless in evacuating its civilians. Fast forward to modern day and you have modern frigates and other assorted 'hard power' tools, along with soft power ones that compel Jakarta to be a little more compliant. If anything the example of Indonesian maltreatment of ethnic Chinese (along with other such cases in SEA) justify the massive increases in Chinese military spending.

THink about it this way; the British and Australian press had a certain fixation and way of reporting Mugabe's mob raping and persecuting white farmers in a way that radicalised the british and australian public. Why would the british and australians bother, since these white zimbabweans, despite being descended from anglos, were still zimbabweans anyhow?

[Ak1980]

But i thought Chinese in Libya is China citizen/nationality? Are you sure they are just Chinese ethnicity? Will China endangered their economic ties with Indonesia for the sake of Indonesian Chinese?

British and Australia only reporting but they do not intervene.

Last i hear Jiang itself said you are citizen of what nation you live right now, so do your best (Gambatte sucker! ) or something similar like that when he came to Indonesia.

If anything, my little contact with Chinese government official convinced me, they only care your chinese ethnicity/culture when there is profit to be made. If not you are out of luck. Also why should they care about Chnese ethnicity

I do hope you are right, but i seriously doubt it.

[Condottiere 40K]

In Libya, it was more of a case of expatriate contract workers. Indonesia is more of a singularity, where you had both an ethnic and religious factor combined with with a very small minority, so that it did resemble more of a pogrom where Jews would be targetted by Christian Europeans. Though I was informed that the Chinese did threaten to send over their navy if the Indonesian military didn't get the situation in hand, which at that point they did.

Malaysia is a powder keg, but being a very substantial minority, any such similar action would trigger off a widescale civil war, and resemble Libya. Whereas the Chinese might retain cultural links to their homeland, politically their ideology is Capitalism, not any form of Marxism. Renewed commercial links and mainland sympathies would ensure that military weapons, even of North Korean origin to hide direct PRC involvement, would turn any true conflict neither one sided nor civil.

The Philippines situation seems more a matter of the PRC trying to push into their territorial waters to secure both the control of shipping lane arteries, a buffer zone against US naval power projection and exploitation of seabed resources. If you think the Falklands geographical situation seems a little extreme, you would be surprised to find Chinese boundaries seem to march almost onto the shores of the Philippines.