About RTW campagn

[Mithridates the Great]

Hello!
Ok guys, I have been playing a year ago many campaigns in RTW but I realized there were some historical inaccuracies that I would like to discuss with you.

Well first of all there were no something like " Greek cites " Sparta and other cities that there are in this "faction" were having another political system the city states,you know when a city has his own army general etc.
Well Parthians I think also weren't in this place of map and Scythians too
I think they were there:


M...Another thing I want to discuss is that Pontians had Greek culture in ancient times and not Eastern
as they were Greek Ionians



SO...What's your idea? What do you think about my post? Have you found another historical inaccuracies?
Well I want to say I don't know many things about ancient armies that's why I didn't write about sacred band that looks like EXACTLY like the "greek cities" armoured hoplite

I hope I wrote the post in the write forum and you can see the images
THX

[Willowran]

oh there are TONS of historical innacuracies. For example, have you see egypts entire roster?

RTW's innacuracy is commonly known about the forum: if you want a more accurate version you can play mods such as Rome Total Realism, and Roma Surrectum (??).

[Mithridates the Great]

yeah man,I have played some mods and there were quite enjoyable (Rise of Persia mod etc) before making this account
Well for egypt I know that it should called Ptolemic empire and I agree with you...I cannot understand why the creators didn't give so much attenction to this xD

[Asgaroth]

Well first of all there were no something like " Greek cites " Sparta and other cities that there are in this "faction" were having another political system the city states,you know when a city has his own army general etc.

Due to the engine limit of the game you can only have 21 factions and since at that time were many greek citi states, like Sparta, Athens, Argos, Rhodos and so on the only way they could represent them roughly was through the greek city states. They had a different system. They had their own army and laws and were at war with each other, but as I said before due to the engine limitation the game has 21 factions.

Well Parthians I think also weren't in this place of map and Scythians too

Parthians started a little bit Eastern of the Caspian lake or as they call it Sea also.


And as you posted they grew into a big empire. The Kingdom of Atropatene came under their rule peacefuly and Parthians gave them a lot of independance in the kingdom, they were basicly friends.

At that time scythians weren't such dominante as they are shown in the game. The Sarmatians however were the people who came from ancient Iran and fought off the Scythians. So to conclude, Scythia in this at this time of game is historicaly inacurrate as a faction, they should be replaced with Sarmatians- plenty of mods have done that.

M...Another thing I want to discuss is that Pontians had Greek culture in ancient times and not Eastern
as they were Greek Ionians

It is assumed that the Pontics lived a tribal life before the greeks came and intoduced them into the greek society. They were of persian origin and they later adopted the greek culture , greek styled armies and even gods such as Zeus or demi gods such as Heracles, but they also worshiped their own persian denities which they probably worshiped in tribal times.

SO...What's your idea? What do you think about my post? Have you found another historical inaccuracies?

I don't have anything special to think of as you only asked quiestion, but I like to talk about this things....


A lot more historicaly inacurracies are found in the game by fans who aim for historical acurracy and realism, but my private is that it wasn't meant to be historicaly acurrate, it was just a game to play for fun.

- falming pigs were used against elephants ,but they were never used as batalions as they are in game. Historicaly the Romans used thef flaming pigs in order to scare off the Carthaginian Elephants.
- Wardogs were also used historicaly by the romans especially in their campaign in Britain when they fought agains the British tribes.
- The Egyptian faction is completely inacurrate as they have their ancient armies. In this time of the game the were called The Ptolemaic Empire and their army had more hellenised troops, especially those of higher rank. Are elite horsmen were greeks for example. However the title of the king did remain Pharoah as Ptolemy was Pharoah of the Ptolemaic Empire. The religion was different, both greek and ancient egyptian.
- The three Roman families are also inacurrate. Only one family out of those three is historicaly acurrate and that is the Scipi family. The Julii family and The Brutii Family are here to represent Julius Caesar and Brutus who stabbed him if I am talking about the right Brutus.
-Roman senate can't be a different faction as they were part of Rome itself.
-Germans faction need to have more spear units as they prefered spears, not axes as it is shown, but they did use axes, especially the Germans that came form Denmark, Sweden and so.
-Macedon has a wrong faction symbol- they have the lacedemonian lambda, which was a symbol of Sparta not Macedon.

But also there are more things to add but the list would be long.

[King of Thessaly]

- falming pigs were used against elephants ,but they were never used as batalions as they are in game. Historicaly the Romans used thef flaming pigs in order to scare off the Carthaginian Elephants.
- Wardogs were also used historicaly by the romans especially in their campaign in Britain when they fought agains the British tribes.
- The Egyptian faction is completely inacurrate as they have their ancient armies. In this time of the game the were called The Ptolemaic Empire and their army had more hellenised troops, especially those of higher rank. Are elite horsmen were greeks for example. However the title of the king did remain Pharoah as Ptolemy was Pharoah of the Ptolemaic Empire. The religion was different, both greek and ancient egyptian.
- The three Roman families are also inacurrate. Only one family out of those three is historicaly acurrate and that is the Scipi family. The Julii family and The Brutii Family are here to represent Julius Caesar and Brutus who stabbed him if I am talking about the right Brutus.
-Roman senate can't be a different faction as they were part of Rome itself.
-Germans faction need to have more spear units as they prefered spears, not axes as it is shown, but they did use axes, especially the Germans that came form Denmark, Sweden and so.
-Macedon has a wrong faction symbol- they have the lacedemonian lambda, which was a symbol of Sparta not Macedon.

But also there are more things to add but the list would be long.

I would like to add:

-The campaign starting tme is completely innacurate
-The Macedonian and Seleucid infantry are innacurate
-Spain is actually Iberia

[Asgaroth]

I would like to add:

-The campaign starting tme is completely innacurate
-The Macedonian and Seleucid infantry are innacurate
-Spain is actually Iberia

Also, fighting style of the hoplites is inacurrate and those of the sarrisa units

[Petroniu]

-The campaign starting tme is completely innacurate

I truly don't understand this. What do you mean with that? The starting date is innacurate in relation to what? You can't just say that that year is wrong...

[Mithridates the Great]

I truly don't understand this. What do you mean with that? The starting date is innacurate in relation to what? You can't just say that that year is wrong...

Maybe he means the time when Romans were rising.

[complete noob:(]

- The three Roman families are also inacurrate. Only one family out of those three is historicaly acurrate and that is the Scipi family. The Julii family and The Brutii Family are here to represent Julius Caesar and Brutus who stabbed him if I am talking about the right Brutus.

Well, actually the Scipio wasn't a family of it's own. It was a branch of the Cornelia gens (family). And then there was the Julia gens (or gens Julia, not quite sure which order it goes in), from which Caesar and Augustus came from. And Bruti is actually a branch of the Junii gens.

But anyways, another historical inaccuracy
- Capua is given to the Scipii, although Brutus's (who presumably is the reason for the Brutii faction) father founded Capua.


(and P.S, I got all of this info frm Wikipedia, so I may be wrong)

[Mithridates the Great]

Hello there Asgaroth
Glad to see such an interest for my post I would like to say my opinion to your answer
For Parthians yes you are right I think and for Scythians but I know that in some time they were having war againist Thracians

Well about Pontians,I know well their history because I have some relations with Pontus.They didn't have relations with Persians they were Hellenes and they were too.I am sure it is more accurate to put Greek culture in Pontians.(I have tried it by editing some files but I didn't succeded at all

I would like to say that I TOTALLY agree with your post at the last paragraph when you say about Roman pigs ...egypt etc
I would like to mention that Macedonian symbol was Vergina Sun that symbols the Greek gods I think...about the Lakedemonian L symbol that creators of the game put it because Macedonians were Greek Dorian tribe as the Spartans (Lakedemonians) was
I want to put videos in my reply too from youtube but I don't know how ... if you do tell me please
THX

[Mithridates the Great]

yeah i was thinkng that because of the limitations (21 factions) they didn't put the Greek cities as factions and also it is supposed to be mostly for Romans so the Roman families were more nessecery for this game (unfortunately)...but I have seen some mods that have more than 21 factions how can this be....In my opinion if it was about to make so few factions they shouldn't make scythia but Athenians + with their allies cities and Spartans + their ally cities and be like
(Athen city states , Spartan city states or something like this,it is just an idea

[complete noob:(]

yeah i was thinkng that because of the limitations (21 factions) they didn't put the Greek cities as factions and also it is supposed to be mostly for Romans so the Roman families were more nessecery for this game (unfortunately)...but I have seen some mods that have more than 21 factions how can this be....In my opinion if it was about to make so few factions they shouldn't make scythia but Athenians + with their allies cities and Spartans + their ally cities and be like
(Athen city states , Spartan city states or something like this,it is just an idea

It is impossible for those mods to have more than 21, that is a hard-coded limit. But ya, they could've somehow improved the Greek Cities, and the overall faction list

[Asgaroth]

but I know that in some time they were having war againist Thracians

Yes, both the Scythians and the Sarmatians fought against the Thracian tribes.

Well about Pontians,I know well their history because I have some relations with Pontus.They didn't have relations with Persians they were Hellenes and they were too.I am sure it is more accurate to put Greek culture in Pontians.

Emmm....

The Persian dynasty which was to found this kingdom had during the fourth century BC ruled the Greek city of Cius (or Kios) in Mysia, with its first known member being Ariobarzanes I of Cius and the last ruler based in the city being Mithridates II o Cius. Mithridates II's son, also called Mithridates, would become Mithridates I Ktistes of Pontus.

During the troubled period following the death of Alexander the Great, Mithridates Ktistes was for a time in the service of Antigonus, one of Alexander's successors, and successfully maneuvering in this unsettled time managed, shortly after 302 BC, to create the Kingdom of Pontus which would be ruled by his descendants mostly bearing the same name, until 64 BC. Thus, this Persian dynasty managed to survive and prosper in the Hellenistic world while the main Persian Empire had fallen.

Source :Bryer, Anthony A. M. (1980), The Empire of Trebizond and the Pontos, London: Variorum Reprints, ISBN 0-86078-062-7


Pontus had been largely colonized by Greeks for several centuries prior to the campaigns of Alexander, but his conquests gave Hellenization a firm hold over the inhabitants. Colonists founded flourishing trade cities all over the coast, including Sinope, Trapezus, Cerasus, Side, Cotyora, Amisus, and Apsarus. Prior to the Greeks, however, Scythians and other regional peoples such as the Hittites and Persians dominated the culture.One such tribe, the Chalybes(they were of Persian descent), are credited in some ancient sources as being the first people to use coal in iron furnaces, thereby creating steel, although they certainly didn't understand the complete concept.

Strabo (12.1.4 C534) says that both Pontus and its neighbor to the south, Cappadocia, developed from the two Cappadocian satrapies of the Persian empire, and that it was the Macedonians — presumably he means the Seleucids—who had named one Pontus and the other Cappadocia.

The peoples of this part of northern Asia Minor were incorporated into the third and nineteenth satrapies of the Persian empire (Herodotus 3.90-94). Iranian influence ran deep, illustrated most famously by the temple of the Persian deities Anaitis, Omanes, and Anadatos at Zela, founded by victorious Persian generals in the 6th century BCE (Strabo 11.8.4 C512; 12.3.37 C559). The site flourished and became so important that it was here that the people of Pontus made their most sacred vows. Even in Strabo's day it was still a dynamic center of Persian culture and religion. Persian names, particularly Pharnakes, are found scattered around the kingdom and are held most prominently by the ruling Mithradatids, who are also the best evidence for Persian colonization of the area. They were a powerful and noble Persian family, probably directly related to the great Darius I himself, which in the 5th and 4th centuries BCE had held sway as dynasts over the regions of Mysia and Mariandynia on the Propontis and farther east along the south shore of the Black Sea.

Sources :

J. G. C. Anderson, Studia Pontica I. A journey of exploration in Pontus, Brussels, 1903.
J. G. C. Anderson, F. Cumont, H. Gre‚goire, Studia Pontica III. Recueil des inscriptions grecqus et latines du Pont et de l'Arme‚nie, Brussels, 1910.
A. B. Bosworth, P. V. Wheatley, "The origins of the Pontic house," Journal of Hellenic Studies 118, 1998, pp. 155-64.
L. Ballasteros Pastor, Mitrídates Eupa‚tor, rey del Ponto, Granada, 1996.
P. Briant, Histoire de l'empire perse de Cyrus a Alexandre, Paris, 1996.
F. Cumont, E. Cumont, Studia Pontica II. Voyage d'exploration arche‚ologique dans le Pont at la Petite Arme‚nie, Brussels, 1906.
B. C. McGing, The foreign policy of Mithridates VI Eupator king of Pontus, Leiden, 1986.
Idem, "On the fringes. Culture and history in the kingdom of Pontus," VDI 3 1998, no. 3, pp. 97-112 (in Russian). Ed. Meyer, Geschichte des Königreichs Pontos, Leipzig, 1879.
S. Mitchell, "In search of the Pontic community in antiquity," in A. K., Bowman, H. M. Cotton, M. Goodman, S. Price, eds., Representations of empire. Rome and the Mediterranean world, Oxford, 2002, pp. 35-64.
E. Olshausen, "Pontos," in Pauly-Wissowa Suppl. 15, 1978, cols 396-442.
E. Olshausen and J. Biller, Untersuchungen zur historischer Geographie von Pontos unter den Mithridatiden, Wiesbaden, 1984.
T. Reinach, Mithridates Eupator. König von Pontos, Leipzig, 1895.
S. J. Saprykin, The Pontic kingdom, Moscow, 1996 (in Russian).
D. R. Wilson, The historical geography of Bithynia, Paphlagonia and Pontus in the Greek and Roman periods, B.Litt. thesis, Oxford, 1960.
..........................................................


So to conclude, they were Persian tribes that were hellenised in time of Alexander the Great. And after his Empire has fallen, they remained hellenised and civilised, as you can see in their armies and Gods, but they also worshiped their ancient Gods aside from the greek ones.

(I have tried it by editing some files but I didn't succeded at all

You just go into :

RTW/ DATA, and scroll down untill you find the file name descr_sm_factions, open it and and scroll untill you have found Pontus and it should look like this :


;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

faction pontus
culture eastern
symbol models_strat/symbol_pontus.CAS
rebel_symbol models_strat/symbol_eastern_rebel.CAS
primary_colour red 10, green 100, blue 125
secondary_colour red 165, green 20, blue 20
loading_logo loading_screen/symbols/symbol128_pontus.tga
standard_index 9
logo_index 246
small_logo_index 260
triumph_value 5
intro_movie fmv/intros/eastern_intro_640x480_bars.wmv
victory_movie fmv/victory/eastern_outro_320x240.wmv
defeat_movie fmv/lose/pontus_eliminated.wmv
death_movie fmv/death/death_pontus_sand_320x240.wmv
custom_battle_availability yes
can_sap no
prefers_naval_invasions yes
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

You just delete the eastern and place greek like this :

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

faction pontus
culture greek
symbol models_strat/symbol_pontus.CAS
rebel_symbol models_strat/symbol_eastern_rebel.CAS
primary_colour red 10, green 100, blue 125
secondary_colour red 165, green 20, blue 20
loading_logo loading_screen/symbols/symbol128_pontus.tga
standard_index 9
logo_index 246
small_logo_index 260
triumph_value 5
intro_movie fmv/intros/eastern_intro_640x480_bars.wmv
victory_movie fmv/victory/eastern_outro_320x240.wmv
defeat_movie fmv/lose/pontus_eliminated.wmv
death_movie fmv/death/death_pontus_sand_320x240.wmv
custom_battle_availability yes
can_sap no
prefers_naval_invasions yes
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;


And that should be all, but then other problems occure : you need to change the units, buildings, make UI's and so....so it is better not to do that.

I would like to mention that Macedonian symbol was Vergina Sun that symbols the Greek gods I think

Yes.

about the Lakedemonian L symbol that creators of the game put it because Macedonians were Greek Dorian tribe as the Spartans (Lakedemonians) was

I don't know what are you tring to say here but Spartans are one tribe that came out of the Dorian and their home was Lacedemon, yes.

Macedonians on the other side mingled(mixed) with the Dorians.

I don't know much of this so I can't comment properly.

I want to put videos in my reply too from youtube but I don't know how ... if you do tell me please

I too don't know how, I don't know even how to make a screenshot from RTW.

but I have seen some mods that have more than 21 factions how can this be

As already mentioned it can't be, only in other mods that are not for RTW maybe, but in RTW there are 22 factions and rebels are the 22 faction.

[complete noob:(]

As already mentioned it can't be, only in other mods that are not for RTW maybe, but in RTW there are 22 factions and rebels are the 22 faction.

No, rebels are the 21st faction. 21 factions total

[Mithridates the Great]

Hello,I don't know if it is allowed to send links but I will risk it...
About Spartan-Macedonians that are from the same tribe here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xjkczd35-M

Well I have done this editing in RTW file (descr_sm_factions ) but the soldiers and building F@c#d up.. also I succeded only to make the Pontian general Greek style.

I see what you are trying to say for Pontos but in 280BC they were Hellenic state...Pontian cities were not Persians and People of pontus too they were just indigenous people
but this a VERY long time ago.

In addition to this all previous myths functioned as magnets that attracted large masses of Greek immigrants from Greece to Asia Minor and Pontos. The era of big colonization began in the 8th century. BC with the Miletos in Ionia to colonize the Black Sea paralionti. The first colony of Sinope, a city-metropolis in turn colonized all of the Black Sea coast founding other famous cities. Beautiful and majestic, Sinope quickly became a significant port, numerous fleet and gaining power. From this comes the philosopher Diogenes, the most famous representative of the cynical school of antiquity. The Greeks that came to Asia Minors were Ionians,that's what I wrote to the forum too

After the overthrow of the medicos rule by Cyrus the Persian, the Sea will go to the guardianship of Persia, without knowing the devastating wars of the Persian expansion. The cities, especially the Anatolian coast to Colchis, on the Persian domination, fell in great king, and maintained while internal autonomy. The Achaemenid dynasty, the cities of the eastern coast of Asia Minor were under the same satrapy, but their dominance was more typical, because Xenophon on many of the neighboring tribes were almost independent and often fought the Greek cities.


You see what I am trying to say? If the lands of Pontus were Persian,Persians didn't have to conquer them
During the time between the passage of Xenophon to the rulers of Alexander, Trebizond and all the Greek cities of the colonial period, Black enjoyed peace and prosperity, is also expanding not only places on the coast, but towards the interior of the region, then hellenizated more and more tribes

[Asgaroth]

No, rebels are the 21st faction. 21 factions total

My bad, sorry. Yes, there are 21 factions.

The first colony of Sinope, a city-metropolis in turn colonized all of the Black Sea coast founding other famous cities. Beautiful and majestic, Sinope quickly became a significant port, numerous fleet and gaining power. From this comes the philosopher Diogenes, the most famous representative of the cynical school of antiquity. The Greeks that came to Asia Minors were Ionians,that's what I wrote to the forum too

I agree with you. The costal lines of Asia minor were mostly inhabited with Greeks as there were a lot of Greek colonies around the Black Sea. I meant that Greeks weren't the majority of that area. There were Persians a lot more then the Greeks

Well I have done this editing in RTW file (descr_sm_factions ) but the soldiers and building F@c#d up.. also I succeded only to make the Pontian general Greek style.

For the rest part you need to know scripting quite good, as well as 2D art and if you want some new special units then 3D art is included too.