Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

[Gaidin]

I don't care if you're a lorewhore or not. When you spout off that its not there when it blatantly is and then keep saying its not after being shown that it is, what the hell does that make you?

I can't believe GRRM and D&D didn't have their ideas as to why all this is going on. This is very crucial information.

It's not very crucial information at all. Why? For the same god damn reason greek myth isn't crucial information to us. We still to this day wonder what the living frak was going on in Greece five thousand years ago and the best we can pin down is some supernatural tale ala the battles involving Troy where the gods are literally involved and helping key heroes literally related to other gods kick major ass. You want to guess how real that BS actually is? It doesn't effect our society today at all unless you study it as a student and professor.

This stuff didn't effect The Game of Thrones society 6,000 years after the first war against the Others because even the Night's Watch didn't believe in their existence anymore but for the fact that yea...screw it....two warning blasts over the horn meant the Others were coming. Even though we knew in our bones they were extinct now. Every myth for which we can't find anything legitimately proving of them means what? Bull in modern society. It only meant something once they fought the zombies. It only meant something to the South once they brought the zombie south and proved to them that yes, they existed.

The myths and origins? Useless but for the stories characters told to themselves.

[Knight of Heaven]

Again he isn't not wrong in assuming they told us precious little so they could milk it later in a spin off.

I would be cautious in comparing the stuff from the books, since so far there is very little we know about the others. For one there isn't even a night king to begin with. Although the lore surrounding it is far more fascinating to me then what we got in the show.


Anyhow
Interesting vid, plenty wrong with the long night battle.

[Gaidin]

Again he isn't not wrong in assuming they told us precious little so they could milk it later in a spin off.

They told us so little because they don't have the time Knight. You do realize that right? If they're going to deep dive on origins of these people they then have to do a casting call, they have to write the deep dive on all this they have to scout the location they have to prep the location. Oh, then we get to write the lore on all the old houses as well and we cast all of their old lords and how they got started.

They didn't do it so they could milk it later in a spin off.

They did it this way because they don't have time and all you assume is pure god damn greed for more tv. What it is is pure greed and we can't afford to film all this stuff and stay on schedule and stay on focus.

People accuse GRRM of such haphazard writing of his books. Cookiegod wants a prequel show in the middle of the main show instead of a prequel show as its own thing? Let's see how that works when a tv show focused on the relatively medieval great houses suddenly spends an entire god damn season in the Dawn Age to establish the origin of the Others but has to cast everyone and the kitchen sink to make Cookiegod happy?

I await with baited breath your explanation how that's going to be justified to any executive.

[Gaidin]

Don't get me wrong Knight. I like Arrow and its format as much as the next person hates it. But you're about 7 years too late to run Game of Thrones like that. It'd have been pretty cool to run this show with seasonal historic flashbacks like Robert's Rebellion, or the Greyjoy's Rebellion, or as far back in history as we want to go as each season went on.

[Cookiegod]

Lol Gaidin, for the 1millionth time: I'm conceding that technically very little is slightly more than nothing, so technically I was wrong. Is the point I was making wrong? We don't know, because you've so far refused to engage the point I was making at all. Are you going to engage it now? Nope? Well fine.
In that case I propose you go somewhere private, rub off that hard-on you obviously get from calling me wrong, then come back when you have something substantial to contribute.

Says he doesn't care that I'm not a lore whore -> proceeds to prove that by pretending I asked for a "deep dive", to rebut it by claiming there was no time for that.

I love debates, but petty word play is hollow and boring.

[Kyriakos]

I think that at some point we should all realize that mocking D&D is uncool, because they are real people and have real needs. Some actually must be paid millions of dollars, otherwise they will literally starve to death. You cannot prove they aren't a 50-headed Scylla and tons of fresh fish specifically captured at the straits of Messina have to be delivered to this D&D creature. Also, some fanbois liked season8.
I know what you are thinking... "Scylla only had 6 heads" - yes, but

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

SUBVERSION

[Gaidin]

We don't know, because you've so far refused to engage the point I was making at all. Are you going to engage it now? Nope? Well fine.

You've yet to go into it any deeper than to say that...they didn't go into the origin story? When they did?

Welp. They did.

I actually addressed what you said quite a bit deeper than you deserved in post #10501. Respond or concede.

[Cookiegod]

You've yet to go into it any deeper than to say that...they didn't go into the origin story? When they did?

Welp. They did.

*sigh* Again: I don't count that one scene as much of an origin story, because it's incomplete. We get almost nothing out of it.

I actually addressed what you said quite a bit deeper than you deserved in post #10501. Respond or concede.

fine -.-'

I don't care if you're a lorewhore or not. When you spout off that its not there when it blatantly is and then keep saying its not after being shown that it is, what the hell does that make you?

Someone who is able to argue a point, and more interested in that than petty disputes over who's right and wrong in the strictest, technically correct, but otherwise completely vapid interpretations. That was said to you multiple times already, so might as well do that multiple times in this post again.

It's not very crucial information at all. Why? For the same god damn reason greek myth isn't crucial information to us. We still to this day wonder what the living frak was going on in Greece five thousand years ago and the best we can pin down is some supernatural tale ala the battles involving Troy where the gods are literally involved and helping key heroes literally related to other gods kick major ass. You want to guess how real that BS actually is? It doesn't effect our society today at all unless you study it as a student and professor.

Yeah but nah. If a halfnaked bodybuilder with a spear and a bronze shield kicked my door in yelling: "THIS IS SPARTA!" I'd want to know where he is from. And that's just reality.

Game of Thrones is NOT reality. It is a story.
Writing being an art doesn't mean it isn't a skill as well. Which means there are things that work and things that don't. One of the things that do work narrationwise is giving a villain a clear motive, an agency, and so on.

In the shows INTERNAL LOGIC it makes no sense at all for them to be so uninterested in that guy. You'd think they'd want to know their enemy. But then again, the show's got the worst battle plans, the worst strategies, the worst diplomacy, the worst anything military or politics related since ~ season 6.

This stuff didn't effect The Game of Thrones society 6,000 years after the first war against the Others because even the Night's Watch didn't believe in their existence anymore but for the fact that yea...screw it....two warning blasts over the horn meant the Others were coming. Even though we knew in our bones they were extinct now. Every myth for which we can't find anything legitimately proving of them means what? Bull in modern society. It only meant something once they fought the zombies.It only meant something to the South once they brought the zombie south and proved to them that yes, they existed.

It doesn't matter at all whether it's 6000 years ago or 60. Every myth could potentially show you a way as to how they could be defeated or driven away. There were winters before, right? And the guy just left for no reason?

It only meant something to the South once they brought the zombie south and proved to them that yes, they existed.

Ugh. Please don't mention it again. That plotline was so stupid in so many ways, it was painful to watch.

The myths and origins? Useless but for the stories characters told to themselves.

Even if that were true (which it isn't even remotely), it'd be essential to the story arc.

The White Walkers were clearly given some intelligence. Not the lower ones, but their leaders. They understand symbolism, because they keep doing it. They understand hierarchies, because they have some.
The night king is also clearly given some sense of logic.
If they had been represented as some form of nature, it would've worked as well. But they didn't.

There would've been many many ways to flesh out the night king, but the most obvious one was to give us more about his origins. A dagger in his heart is a good start, but on its own not nearly enough. They could and should've left that out as something irrelevant if they'd've known that they wouldn't follow up on that.

But I'm very certain they didn't know about that.



The entire point of Brans storyline in seasons ~4-6 were for him to get up there, become the three eyed raven and learn something. The scene you yourself linked was definitely meant to be an appetizer.
But later on the show-runners clearly decided they'd rather milk the cash cow as much as possible.

We still have the remnants of what they likely intended earlier. Sam in that hogwarts-style library (can't be bothered to learn names), the cave under Dragonstone, and Bran's never really used superpower later on. Those avenues were created with a purpose, and likely the night king was meant to be fleshed out through them... But then the show runners decided to do something else instead.


Do I need a prequel? Nope. Again: I couldn't care less about the lore. Do I need flashbacks? Not necessarily, though it can be done that way. But essentially I'm a believer in Chekhov's gun principle. If you put something there, do it for a reason. D&D have shown many times in the last seasons that they're of the same school of thought.

I do not think D&D are incompentent, and this is too much of a beginner mistake to make. Plus the groundwork was laid for what clearly was supposed to be more. It was omitted for a reason, which was likely the spin-off.

Respond or concede.

Your turn.

[athanaric]

It's not very crucial information at all. Why? For the same god damn reason greek myth isn't crucial information to us. We still to this day wonder what the living frak was going on in Greece five thousand years ago and the best we can pin down is some supernatural tale ala the battles involving Troy where the gods are literally involved and helping key heroes literally related to other gods kick major ass.

The Trojan War, as per the Iliad, is set in-universe somewhere prior to 1200 BC. That's not 5000 years ago. The Iliad was written in the 8th or 7th century BC, depending on who you ask.
What we know about Greece 5000 years ago we know from archaeology, not literary sources.

You want to guess how real that BS actually is? It doesn't effect our society today at all unless you study it as a student and professor.

What are you talking about. These stories have lived on in collective memory and even in pop culture to this day, inspiring even Hollywood movies, not to mention influencing the way many people (among whom the students of history are only a minority) think about the past and life in general.

I do think a point can be made that the time elapsing between events of mythical past and the GoT time frame is a bit long, considering IRL noble houses don't last for several millennia (although there are some people with the surnames of Roman and Parthian nobility alive today, I suspect it's either coincidence or a result of forgery by one of their ancestors), and so on.

I do not think D&D are incompentent, and this is too much of a beginner mistake to make. Plus the groundwork was laid for what clearly was supposed to be more. It was omitted for a reason, which was likely the spin-off.

I actually suspect the answer is "they ran out of screen time and/or budget". Of course, I might just be naively optimistic there...

[Cookiegod]

The Trojan War, as per the Iliad, is set in-universe somewhere prior to 1200 BC. That's not 5000 years ago. The Iliad was written in the 8th or 7th century BC, depending on who you ask.
What we know about Greece 5000 years ago we know from archaeology, not literary sources.

Imagine zombie-Achilles setting out to conquer and kill us all. Where should I put my spear?
Nah, never mind. This BS doesn't affect our society today at all. I'll just have my little sister kill him for me.

I actually suspect the answer is "they ran out of screen time and/or budget". Of course, I might just be naively optimistic there...

They didn't run out of budget. Definitely not. Screen time?! Well, no one gets why they had to keep it at those 2*6. Didn't they say they could've done more but didn't want to? Or something similar?

Anyway, my theory is based on the various plot lines that simply evaporated into thin air, when there was that obvious knot that could've tied them all together with minimal screen time. And given how much screentime was wasted on truly nonessential drivel, that could've been done without extra screen time. Especially since they weren't about rushing the plot through anyway. Plus with my theory those beginners mistakes those probably skilled and experienced writers did wouldn't have been mistakes after all. So with all that I couldn't help but get to that conclusion. It was more of a theory before people here in this thread confirmed such a series is actually in the works. Now I'm pretty sure.

You can also ask yourself if the showrunners really would've ordered that extra spin-off if their idea of the night king had been as boring as they made him in the show. They obviously banked a bit too hard on fan good will and so on, but it's still the only way their decisions make any sense at all.

[conon394]

I actually suspect the answer is "they ran out of screen time and/or budget". Of course, I might just be naively optimistic there...

My impression was rather the was kinda grueling on the actors and there may have been a sense that they were sorta done and wanted to move on as well.

@Cookiegod

I would agree a longer season or another was likely the best option, but the simple fact is the writers inherited the sprawling mess GRRM has stopped writing and I really doubt he will or finish or wrap it up in 2 books ever.

[Cookiegod]

I would agree a longer season or another was likely the best option

I literally said they didn't need a longer season.

[conon394]

I literally said they didn't need a longer season.

Sorry mis read than. But they did more time. They either had to evaporate more plot lines faster or carry on longer. The was already being made fun of for teleportation. Go back to season one or two a people really had to move in fairly realist time scales.

[Knight of Heaven]

Have you guys seen the documentary "the last watch"?
Well if as you say, it was grueling for the actors, it would even worse for the crew. Although i do not get necessarily this impression from the documentary. Although from what i gather the long night episode was kinda difficult, and took a long time to shoot.

[hellheaven1987]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So why did John Snow kill Daenerys in the end?

[conon394]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So why did John Snow kill Daenerys in the end?

Because she became the person she always was uber violent self absorbed and realized she been raised by her nut job brother to have absolute belief in her right to rule and that would accept no defiance. And I dunno maybe he a post card from slaver bay where she just walked out on her project. In any case he just watched butcher a crap ton of people who never did anything to her or raised a sword against her or had any say in any policy... Although really its odd they did not have Arya knife her and let mopey bastard mope and not make useful decision as always. . It would really have more sense I think for Jon to do the Night King it was kinda his job, and let Arya kill a queen just not the one she been wanting to for like the whole show. Jon's stubborn Ned like loyalty and say turning away from Danny with Arya offing Danny would have I think made a nice call back to Little fingers knife moment betraying Ned.

[hellheaven1987]

Because she became the person she always was uber violent self absorbed and realized she been raised by her nut job brother to have absolute belief in her right to rule and that would accept no defiance.

She does have right to rule, but a right without power to enforce is merely a worthless right.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In other words, the right solution should be slay her dragon to rob her power, hand her an empty title, and either set up a constitutional monarchy with power rest on rulers of seven kingdoms or a theocracy using Night Watch as sole military order to enforce order with Snow as the chapter master.

[conon394]

She only had right by conquest at her hand. And in any case than Jon had the better claim via the way targs figured succession. In any case why the seven Kingdoms they are simply a construct of forirn adventure aggression that only existed because of dragons. The North, Dorne and the Iron Islands are all deeply culturally distinct but poorer than say the key realms of the andals so will likely loose out in any oligarchy over and over. No Dragons no Targs go back and happily allow devolution to some extent.

[Kyriakos]

Ice Ice baby.

[Knight of Heaven]

She does have right to rule, but a right without power to enforce is merely a worthless right.

By rights and law of the land no she hasn't the right to rule. Jon has. Or rather Aegon the VI has. Not that does it matter much in the practical terms. Because, well even the Mumbai police knows...

Ice Ice baby.

HOOODOOORR!