Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

[SLN445]

At this point of the show, theirs going to be the big battle between Jon, his wildings and whoever else is on their side against the Ramsey and his supporters
Just as the battle seems to be going to Ramsey something will happen (Timely reinforcements, an act of Heroism, a sacrifice or magic) and Jon will win.

[Kyriakos]

^The season trailer actually even shows that turning point moment. Tormund looks lost in the battle, then a rider (likely Jon Snow) charges along with others.

[Captain Jin]

I presume both Karstark and Umber will remain at Bolton's side, the Karstarks hate the Starks now and the Umbers dislike the wildlings and I can't see them having a grand plan. Handing over the heir presumptive of the Starks to the biggest madman of Westeros doesn't fit in any sane plan nor does it score any points with Stark supporters.
I hope we see the Manderlys too, the pics before the season do show Sansa in a room with Mormont banners so I presume they're in, perhaps the Mountain Clans if they bother to include them. I'm not sure what the Vale's role will be, Littlefinger is the most unpredictable character as he only serves his own interest.

The Umbers taking sides with the Boltons doesn't make any sense. Especially because apparently it was Small Jon Umber that brought Bran before the Boltons. Why would he do that? I know in the books he's dead. But the Umbers were incredibly loyal to the Starks. I think it's the show redoing the Great Northern Conspiracy, and it's the Umbers plotting against the Boltons. There's a good theory floating around somewhere the explains it and also shows some pretty interesting parts where Small Jon is staring daggers at the Boltons when they aren't looking at him, plus Osha looking like she knows more than what's going on. I mean, why even bring Osha too anyhow? I think Osha's move to kill Ramsay was the first attempt at their plan, but it didn't work. Anyway, I think when the time is right the Umbers will betray the Karstarks and the Boltons. It also talks about how oaths are really important to the Umbers, and they totally avoid making any oaths to the Boltons so he can never be called oath breaker when he switches on the Boltons.

[Gallus]

The Umbers taking sides with the Boltons doesn't make any sense. Especially because apparently it was Small Jon Umber that brought Bran before the Boltons. Why would he do that? I know in the books he's dead. But the Umbers were incredibly loyal to the Starks. I think it's the show redoing the Great Northern Conspiracy, and it's the Umbers plotting against the Boltons. There's a good theory floating around somewhere the explains it and also shows some pretty interesting parts where Small Jon is staring daggers at the Boltons when they aren't looking at him, plus Osha looking like she knows more than what's going on. I mean, why even bring Osha too anyhow? I think Osha's move to kill Ramsay was the first attempt at their plan, but it didn't work. Anyway, I think when the time is right the Umbers will betray the Karstarks and the Boltons. It also talks about how oaths are really important to the Umbers, and they totally avoid making any oaths to the Boltons so he can never be called oath breaker when he switches on the Boltons.

But why would he give Rickon to Ramsay if he's still loyal to the Starks? Rickon is the last known male Stark and Ramsay is a psychopath who skins people for fun, it makes no sense.

[Sir Adrian]

Ramsay will not harm Rickon. He is too good a bait and were the other houses ever to find out that a bastard killed the child Ned Stark. Not good, not good at all.

[Captain Jin]

But why would he give Rickon to Ramsay if he's still loyal to the Starks? Rickon is the last known male Stark and Ramsay is a psychopath who skins people for fun, it makes no sense.

Because maybe it was the only way to present himself credibly as a potential ally without swearing an oath. Also, not sure that Smalljon ever knew that Jon Snow was dead, but obviously he sees Ramsay as being very naive and reckless/aggressive. So, Rickon serves as bait to get Jon to attack Ramsay, but the deal that Smalljon makes with Ramsay means he gets help against the Wildlings which means what? That Ramsay will take his army into the field to where they are vulnerable (and where he wanted to take them before against Stannis, but was stopped by Roose who was more formidable of a planner). If Smalljon can convince Ramsay to take the field it evens the odds between whatever force Jon could muster, plus any houses that would rise for the Starks (perhaps Smalljon has his own plan to protect Rickon and use him to raise the North's banners at a key moment when Ramsay's forces are most vulnerable)... plus there is the fact that Sansa is alive and more people seem to know that she has escaped, so risking Rickon is entirely too implausible.

I mean sure it's risky. But at that point, if you're a house famously loyal to the Starks you're going to take some pretty desperate moves in order to oust the Boltons-- especially once Ramsay has taken over instead of Roose. Roose was bad enough. Ramsay ruling in the north would probably be unthinkable for most northern houses. Plus, the North remembers. And it just seems odd that one of the most loyal houses would betray the Starks like that.

People have also they think the wolf head was too small to belong to a direwolf.

[Sir Adrian]

Yeah but why not just assassinate Ramsey when he presented rickon to him. Bring in 20 good men and kill the then proclaim Rickon lord of winterfell with smalljohn as his guardian. Ramsey is the last Bolton alive, he dies the house is gone, anybody who follows them becomes leaderless and vulnerable.

[athanaric]

Because maybe it was the only way to present himself credibly as a potential ally without swearing an oath. Also, not sure that Smalljon ever knew that Jon Snow was dead, but obviously he sees Ramsay as being very naive and reckless/aggressive. So, Rickon serves as bait to get Jon to attack Ramsay, but the deal that Smalljon makes with Ramsay means he gets help against the Wildlings which means what? That Ramsay will take his army into the field to where they are vulnerable (and where he wanted to take them before against Stannis, but was stopped by Roose who was more formidable of a planner). If Smalljon can convince Ramsay to take the field it evens the odds between whatever force Jon could muster, plus any houses that would rise for the Starks (perhaps Smalljon has his own plan to protect Rickon and use him to raise the North's banners at a key moment when Ramsay's forces are most vulnerable)... plus there is the fact that Sansa is alive and more people seem to know that she has escaped, so risking Rickon is entirely too implausible.

I mean sure it's risky. But at that point, if you're a house famously loyal to the Starks you're going to take some pretty desperate moves in order to oust the Boltons-- especially once Ramsay has taken over instead of Roose. Roose was bad enough. Ramsay ruling in the north would probably be unthinkable for most northern houses. Plus, the North remembers. And it just seems odd that one of the most loyal houses would betray the Starks like that.

People have also they think the wolf head was too small to belong to a direwolf.

Makes sense to me. Still, an awfully risky gamble. If Rickon died but Team Stark won, Sansa would probably have Umber's head removed rather swiftly.

Yeah but why not just assassinate Ramsey when he presented rickon to him. Bring in 20 good men and kill the then proclaim Rickon lord of winterfell with smalljohn as his guardian.

Because Ramsay is Hitler, the guy has so much plot armour that he's immune to assassination. The only way to bring him down is brute force.

[Gallus]

Because maybe it was the only way to present himself credibly as a potential ally without swearing an oath. Also, not sure that Smalljon ever knew that Jon Snow was dead, but obviously he sees Ramsay as being very naive and reckless/aggressive. So, Rickon serves as bait to get Jon to attack Ramsay, but the deal that Smalljon makes with Ramsay means he gets help against the Wildlings which means what? That Ramsay will take his army into the field to where they are vulnerable (and where he wanted to take them before against Stannis, but was stopped by Roose who was more formidable of a planner). If Smalljon can convince Ramsay to take the field it evens the odds between whatever force Jon could muster, plus any houses that would rise for the Starks (perhaps Smalljon has his own plan to protect Rickon and use him to raise the North's banners at a key moment when Ramsay's forces are most vulnerable)... plus there is the fact that Sansa is alive and more people seem to know that she has escaped, so risking Rickon is entirely too implausible.

I mean sure it's risky. But at that point, if you're a house famously loyal to the Starks you're going to take some pretty desperate moves in order to oust the Boltons-- especially once Ramsay has taken over instead of Roose. Roose was bad enough. Ramsay ruling in the north would probably be unthinkable for most northern houses. Plus, the North remembers. And it just seems odd that one of the most loyal houses would betray the Starks like that.

People have also they think the wolf head was too small to belong to a direwolf.

There have to be better ways. Like gathering support for Rickon among other Northern lords and simply taking Winterfell for example. Hell, they could even recruit the wildlings if they wanted. The plan makes no sense and here's why - if Rickon dies house Stark is finished. Sansa's kids won't be Starks and Jon is a) Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and b) dead. As far as Smalljon knows, Rickon's death means the end of house Stark so giving him to Ramsay is the last thing he should do.

[SLN445]

While a Northern Conspiracy would be interesting, i think that's one part of the show they are skipping in order to streamline things.

[Mangalore]

Can you name the school(s)?

It's mentioned in Bolognese material apparently. As said however mainly as a special feat you added to your fencing education, not something to learn as some sort of normal fencing education. It is probably more debatable if people really chose any of it in a real combat scenario or if they just wanted to learn it for bragging rights.

[Captain Jin]

There have to be better ways. Like gathering support for Rickon among other Northern lords and simply taking Winterfell for example. Hell, they could even recruit the wildlings if they wanted. The plan makes no sense and here's why - if Rickon dies house Stark is finished. Sansa's kids won't be Starks and Jon is a) Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and b) dead. As far as Smalljon knows, Rickon's death means the end of house Stark so giving him to Ramsay is the last thing he should do.

But Rickon isn't the only remaining Stark. Bran is also alive. Also there is no simply taking Winterfell, as was previously mentioned in the series Winterfell is well-provisioned to outlast a siege by an opposing army. We don't really know what northern houses are available, potentially loyal, or even willing to raise the banners for Rickon. And cobbling them together would probably take a long time, and would be difficult. Some of the mountain clans rallied around Stannis, but I don't know how messed up they got in the battle that was lost. It's super risky, but again, if they think that Bran is alive and see an opportunity to lure Ramsay into the open where they are at a disadvantage then it's the best option. Even rallying a few Northern houses to the cause doesn't matter if Ramsay clams up behind Winterfell's walls.

I just rewatched the scene, and Smalljon knows Jon is alive and says it's possible that Jon leads an army of wildlings against Ramsay. At the same time he says that Jon knows more about Winterfell than any of them, basically suggesting to Ramsay that Jon will exploit some secret to get into the walls of the place. But I'd say that's more of a ruse just to make Ramsay feel unsafe. A Wildling Army led by Jon Snow that maybe gains the support of the remaining mountain clans and perhaps another house or two on the way down to meeting Bolton and the Karstarks stands a much better chance of winning in a fight, especially if the Umbers are formed up along them, but turn against them at an opportune moment. It's especially sweet vengeance for the Umbers and the Starks in general, given the Bolton's and Karstark's previous treachery. And it's more assured with the Knights of the Vale riding north as well.

The only real gap is how to protect Rickon. It's clear that Ramsay wants him alive for some sort of bait, but if the Umbers switch sides then presumably the plan would need to have a contingency built in to protect Bran from Ramsay's immediate reprisals once he saw what the Umbers were doing. So that's the only thing that maybe hasn't been puzzled out yet.

While a Northern Conspiracy would be interesting, i think that's one part of the show they are skipping in order to streamline things.

I wouldn't be so sure. After all, last season it was pounded into Sansa that she still had friends in the North. Of course that didn't all work out, but I think the point here is that everyone in the North hates the Boltons except for the Karstarks. It also isn't something all that substantial to add it to the plot since they've already thrown in the Umber's showing up with Rickon. The Umbers betraying Ramsay at the opportune moment would not complicate the plot much at all.

It just fits imo. When they stress that the Umbers are famously loyal to the Starks and that he refuses an oath and Ramsay says why believe you then, and he uses Rickon as the meal ticket to get the Bolton's trust. So now he's in close, in a position to betray the Bolton as they did to the Starks, and he doesn't have to worry about being called an oathbreaker after. It's a risk of course. But what isn't in game of thrones?

[Condottiere 40K]

So Ramsey is Richard the Third?

[Infidel144]

It's mentioned in Bolognese material apparently. As said however mainly as a special feat you added to your fencing education, not something to learn as some sort of normal fencing education. It is probably more debatable if people really chose any of it in a real combat scenario or if they just wanted to learn it for bragging rights.

Yeah, in the Bolognese school (e.g. Marozzo) they are not using longswords. They are using single hand cut and thrust swords (spada da filo or spada di lato). Simliarly with Agrippa, DiGrassi (for other Italians) and Swetnam (for English). I don't recall that any of the surviving treatises (German, Italian or English) have case of swords with two longswords.

[Roma_Victrix]

THE NORTH SHALL RISE AGAIN! Long live the Confederate States of Westeros.




They'll need to rise again if this is true:

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/20/1171400...s-villain-dany

[RedGuard]

So Ramsey is Richard the Third?

well, he is determined to play a villain

[Kyriakos]

Winterfell was also once taken by 20 good ironborn men...

[Mangalore]

Yeah, in the Bolognese school (e.g. Marozzo) they are not using longswords. They are using single hand cut and thrust swords (spada da filo or spada di lato). Simliarly with Agrippa, DiGrassi (for other Italians) and Swetnam (for English). I don't recall that any of the surviving treatises (German, Italian or English) have case of swords with two longswords.

Ok, you seem to be hung up on me having used the term longsword too liberally when I should have said "whatever swords the fencing school fancied that century" because that's mainly what those terms mean. In the weight and usage department we are however still not talking about dualwielding Zweihänders but dualwielding a weapon designed for single and two handed usage you could wear with a scabbard at your side with the main thing being that dual wielding was not just a Hollywood show off technique but also a historic show off technique to indicate someone was really good at swordsmanship.

[Gallus]

But Rickon isn't the only remaining Stark. Bran is also alive.

Bran is lost beyond the Wall and paralyzed, he can't continue the Stark line. Rickon is not the last Stark, but he is the last Stark who can produce a Stark heir.

Ramsay is famous for murdering and torturing people, and Rickon has a far stronger claim to Winterfell than he does, so keeping him alive makes no sense. What does make sense is publicly executing Rickon to strengthen his claim. Keeping him hostage can acomplish only one thing - a coalition of Northern lords against him.

We therefore have to conclude that whatever Smalljon's plan is, it's success cannot depend on Rickon's survival. And that means that he is not doing this to help the Starks.

[Kyriakos]

Bran is lost beyond the Wall and paralyzed, he can't continue the Stark line. Rickon is not the last Stark, but he is the last Stark who can produce a Stark heir.

Ramsay is famous for murdering and torturing people, and Rickon has a far stronger claim to Winterfell than he does, so keeping him alive makes no sense. What does make sense is publicly executing Rickon to strengthen his claim. Keeping him hostage can acomplish only one thing - a coalition of Northern lords against him.

We therefore have to conclude that whatever Smalljon's plan is, it's success cannot depend on Rickon's survival. And that means that he is not doing this to help the Starks.

Then again, given the show's track record, it may be that SJ (smalljohn, not snow jon ) thought he was helping the Starks, but will be executed all the same for stupidity. Wouldn't surprise me. There have been likely worse plotlines by now, including LFs plotline. I somehow doubt he will be killed by Brienne next episode, although with any logic it would be what would happen.
Besides, Brienne can kill everyone -- unless they are a bear.