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Thread: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

  1. #10361
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    According to rumours, Bronn takes the Highgarden. LOL.
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    There seems to be a lot of hate on the Bells. The flaws in the literary aspects of the episode, such as character development and thematic consistency, are not of much interest to me, simply because I think the more the writers pay attention to those things, the more they deviate from any semblance of actual realism, since in the real world people don't often have consistent 'character arcs' in my opinion, and epic military conflicts are littered with illogical decisions, massive use of force in direct contradiction to supposed moral values, and futile obstinacy (cf. WW2, with Hitler in his bunker, the Americans with the atomic bombs, the Japanese Kamikazes, and so on). Nevertheless from the point of view of historical parallels, I really loved the latest episode. A couple of thoughts:

    1. The coalition of the virtuous from across the sea rides up to the greatest city in the world, and having intended to save it, ends up doing the exact opposite. Setting aside Dany's personal character arc, I really like the vibes of the sack of Constantinople of 1204. The latter was probably the single greatest event of the High Middle Ages (aside from the Mongol Conquests, on which more below) and it's crazy it's not appeared on screen before.

    2. And getting back to Dany... maybe I've been reading too much Middle Eastern history of late, and not enough chivalrous romances, but I don't see how her story could have realistically ended any other way. She may see herself as a Westerosi saviour and slayer of tyrants, but she spent nearly her entire life up until now in Essos, in the company of a brother and retinue who talked about nothing else other than the god-given right of the Targaryens to the Iron Throne, and then a husband whose life and then death taught her a major lesson - might is right. Let's compare the Dothraki to the actual Steppe warriors on whom they are based, and the Unsullied with the Persian Immortals on whom they are based: does anyone really believe that a hypothetical army led by a princess who spent her formative years married to a Mongol warlord, nurtured with tales of her stolen kingdom and right to rule, and leading an army of Steppe warriors and Persians, would simply march into King's Landing peacefully and accept the city's surrender? Regardless of Dany's personal beliefs (which it's quite clear have ALWAYS prioritised violent revenge and mass murder in the name of instilling absolute power), how could she even stop an army like that from burning the city to the ground, even without the presence of the dragon? Perhaps there could have been a slightly better leadup and trigger for her decision but the result was absolutely the right call by the writers.
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  3. #10363
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Are you suffering from amnesia, Copperknickers? Daenerys is the Breaker of Chains. She has spent the majority of the series freeing innocent slaves from masters who would beat and crucify them. Even in season 1, while cold and indifferent to her sadistic brother's brutal execution by Khal Drogo, Daenerys was attempting to stop innocent people from being harmed or raped by the Dothraki. Daenerys was even reluctant to restart the gladiatorial games in Mereen since she considered it to be barbaric. Daenerys sacrificed a dragon to save Jon & company beyond the wall in season 7 and spent the first half of season 8 literally helping to save the world from a zombie apocalypse by sacrificing much of her army to defend the North.

    It's like you don't even watch the same show, or just do so casually.

    What Daenerys did was out of character, completely. She's not even insane like her father the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen, who had literal delusional visions and thought he would become a dragon in the flames of wildfire caches set up throughout King's Landing. Dany lost close friends, but so did nearly every other major character in this series. It would be in-character for Daenerys to burn the Red Keep to try and kill Cersei in a rage. It's completely out of character for her to firebomb fleeing peasants and little girls.

  4. #10364

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Exactly true Roma. She has done horrible things, but those things had purpose or logic behind it. Even Burning the Tarlys. Crucifying the nobles of Mereen, etc are no different then what most If not all rulers would do in the context ( one who would have similar goals and values as Dany anyway) , the same character that imprisoned her dragons because Drogon killed a little girl, its the very same that is now burning hundred thousands of innocent people, women and children, because she is upset. Not mad, but just upset.

    Im not against the notion of her turning mad, im sure the same might happen in the books, but it was badly executed, and developed in the show. Maybe if they had more time with it. Maybe if they had told Emilia years ago, she could portray her character more nuanced, knowing that. But they didn't. This feels just one more shocking moment in the show, just for the sake of it. One in a long list by now, i might add. AS George Martin as said, subverting expectations, needs to come out of the characters, otherwise, it doesn't work. And small bits of foreshadowing, its not the same as character development.

    The problem is they shrunk character development drastically in the last two seasons, because of time constrains.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; May 16, 2019 at 04:50 PM.

  5. #10365

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Are you suffering from amnesia, Copperknickers? Daenerys is the Breaker of Chains. She has spent the majority of the series freeing innocent slaves from masters who would beat and crucify them. Even in season 1, while cold and indifferent to her sadistic brother's brutal execution by Khal Drogo, Daenerys was attempting to stop innocent people from being harmed or raped by the Dothraki. Daenerys was even reluctant to restart the gladiatorial games in Mereen since she considered it to be barbaric. Daenerys sacrificed a dragon to save Jon & company beyond the wall in season 7 and spent the first half of season 8 literally helping to save the world from a zombie apocalypse by sacrificing much of her army to defend the North.

    It's like you don't even watch the same show, or just do so casually.

    What Daenerys did was out of character, completely. She's not even insane like her father the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen, who had literal delusional visions and thought he would become a dragon in the flames of wildfire caches set up throughout King's Landing. Dany lost close friends, but so did nearly every other major character in this series. It would be in-character for Daenerys to burn the Red Keep to try and kill Cersei in a rage. It's completely out of character for her to firebomb fleeing peasants and little girls.
    Yeah, but... the signs were there. Dany's scary dogmatism was already a thing in early seasons, and she's off pulled unreasonable executions, too. IMO the main problem is that her character development in Season 7/8 is condensed into so few episodes.

  6. #10366
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Seems an assumption Dany has full control over what Drogon does. The bond between Dany and Drogon is taken for granted as if she has full power. Even though we've seen this isn't the case..

    If you're a dragon you're maybe thinking - kill em all.

  7. #10367

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    All in all Robert Baratheon Rule was pretty neat in comparison. i miss him. Besides a few skirmishers like the Greyjoy rebellion, it was pretty peaceful otherwise, for all of his reign. People seemed to suffer the most under Lanister and Targeryan rule in comparison. Bobby B was great.


    Seems an assumption Dany has full control over what Drogon does.
    That is stretching in it and you know it. Simply because that is not what has happened in the episode. She clearly didn't lost control of Drogon in the episode, there is no hints of that, or they would have showed it.

    And in the show, when Drogon was out of control he just wanted to be left alone in the wild, hunting game and what not. Just like an wild animal would do.

    Not bring book lore here, because they do have some sort of magical link, but while they showcased in the show some of it was in a very soft manner, and was never really a thing the show itself acknowledged fully.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; May 16, 2019 at 05:07 PM.

  8. #10368

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Halie Satanus View Post
    Seems an assumption Dany has full control over what Drogon does. The bond between Dany and Drogon is taken for granted as if she has full power. Even though we've seen this isn't the case..

    If you're a dragon you're maybe thinking - kill em all.
    Yeah, that's another point. Though if that were the case, they should've made it a bit clearer in this episode or the previous one.

  9. #10369
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    @Knight of Heaven you're missing the point. Not having control and loosing control are not the same thing. I'd argue Dany has never been in control of Drogon, or any of the dragon's. She is called 'Mother of Dragon's,' but their relationship has always been more of tempestuous siblings. In addition, the link between them has always had a magical element. Dracary's is not a multipurpose command. Clearly there is some sort of mental connection.



    And let's not forget Dany had to chain them up at one point while Drogon wandered the earth like Kane from Kung-Fu..
    Last edited by Halie Satanus; May 16, 2019 at 06:02 PM.

  10. #10370

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Dracarys is just something Dany says, it means dragon fire in high valyrian. But that's it. It is the mental connection and the intent of Dany that matters, when she says it. But she doesn't need to say it.

    I dont think i missed the point. Im just saying that isn't what happened in the episode.

    Nor do i think the intent of the show runners in the episode was to show she not having control over Drogon. Her not having full control of Drogon, doesn't exclude her not having enough control over him to do what she wanted in that situation.

    Which clearly she did. As i do think that was the intend of the show. It was her decision, and hers alone. Using the Dragon as a scapegoat, it doesn't make sense considering the purpose of the whole event.


    And let's not forget Dany had to chain them up at one point while Drogon wandered the earth like Kane from Kung-Fu..
    Yes as i mentioned before.

    And he didn't burned any cities to the ground while he was wandering the earth either.

    Killed a child by mistaking it for a sheep. A thing that isn't even uncommon historically for predator animals, in nature. ( Wolfs for instance).
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; May 16, 2019 at 06:13 PM.

  11. #10371
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Drogon is complicit, that doesn't make him a scape goat or Dany any less culpable. But it would explain why they went postal.

  12. #10372

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    What Daenerys did was out of character, completely. She's not even insane like her father the Mad King Aerys II Targaryen, who had literal delusional visions and thought he would become a dragon in the flames of wildfire caches set up throughout King's Landing. Dany lost close friends, but so did nearly every other major character in this series. It would be in-character for Daenerys to burn the Red Keep to try and kill Cersei in a rage. It's completely out of character for her to firebomb fleeing peasants and little girls.
    Eh, she didn't just have her greatest secret betrayed by her own spymaster after all. I mean, yea. We saw that emotional look on her face. But nevermind that the world knew who Jon was. She had no way to rule by the love of the people. She could only rule by the iron fist of fear. (never mind that this was what the book was doing)

    Let's go back to the history. Theon Stark of a so called Great House Of Honor lived in a time of war. He ruled during the time of the Andal Invasion of Westeros. During such he unified the northern lords, including House Bolton, under him, in order to keep the Andals out of the North. He then sailed his own fleet to the Andal homeland for god damn vengeance. He killed hundreds of Andal warriors and set their heads on spikes along the northern coasts as a warning to anyone attempting to conquer the North.

    Now, that's the tv biography. That's leaving out the fact that he had the Andal warlord Argos Sevenstar's body displayed at the prow of his ship as he sailed to the Andal homeland to conquer. He burned a score of Andal villages, killing hundreds while displaying heads of slain enemies to discourage future invaders.

    That's the Starks. Nevermind the biography of the Targaryens when they invaded.

    So you know. This ain't a new thing. Not by a long shot. You really want me to be shocked? A Noble establishing their House doesn't have to go nuts. A Noble with an established House can sorty pretend to be honorable. But at the same time. A Noble is still gonna shiv you to protect themselves.

    So...stop acting surprised.
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  13. #10373
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Which makes Dany waiting for the Northern army that much more pointless. Her army served absolutely no purpose.
    Yep! How many seasons did she spend building up that army to specifically take King's Landing, and she could have just used ONE of her dragons at any point in time to take it. Like, back then I don't even think they had the ballistae. She could have took King's Landing and had her 'army' take out the Night King at the same damn time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    Nor do i think the intent of the show runners in the episode was to show she not having control over Drogon. Her not having full control of Drogon, doesn't exclude her not having enough control over him to do what she wanted in that situation.
    For sure. She had FULL control of the dragon the entire time, you can tell by her damn facial expressions. The bells were ringing forever, and the dragon didn't start burning people until SHE wanted to. It was all her.
    Last edited by SturmChurro; May 16, 2019 at 10:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Are you suffering from amnesia, Copperknickers? Daenerys is the Breaker of Chains. She has spent the majority of the series freeing innocent slaves from masters who would beat and crucify them. Even in season 1, while cold and indifferent to her sadistic brother's brutal execution by Khal Drogo, Daenerys was attempting to stop innocent people from being harmed or raped by the Dothraki. Daenerys was even reluctant to restart the gladiatorial games in Mereen since she considered it to be barbaric. Daenerys sacrificed a dragon to save Jon & company beyond the wall in season 7 and spent the first half of season 8 literally helping to save the world from a zombie apocalypse by sacrificing much of her army to defend the North.
    And all of that was ultimately in the service of one thing, her overriding ambition to rule the Seven Kingdoms and avenge the death of her father at the hands of the Lannisters. If she had simply marched into the city and taken it peacefully, Cersei and Jaime would have escaped to Essos and her 'loyal servants' would have tried to overthrow her in favour of Jon. Probably they will try to do that anyway. But in her mental state at the beginning of the Bells (having seen everyone on her side either dead or traitors) it's not surprising that her morals (steadily decaying over the course of many seasons) would abandon her.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  15. #10375

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)


  16. #10376
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Are you suffering from amnesia, Copperknickers?
    Quote Originally Posted by D&D
    Coppernickers kind of forgot the rest of the show


    Though for me the burning of KL was the best part of season8, and going by the spoilers episode 6 will be one of the stupidest of the show, therefore nothing will change there
    I think GRRM also means for Daneirys to burn KL. D&D didn't have time to make this flow more cause they had to include Jaime and Brienne and subversions.
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  17. #10377

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    I would be perfectly OK with most that has occurred so far if it was given more time to develop naturally, with delivery that makes sense and is justifiable by the character development the series became popular from. Alas, shortened down seasons despite nigh unlimited budget... I can't really fathom why anyone would want to shrink it down when they had plenty of goodwill and resources to go, at least any reason that would result in a good end.

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    Exactly true Roma. She has done horrible things, but those things had purpose or logic behind it. Even Burning the Tarlys...
    ...The problem is they shrunk character development drastically in the last two seasons, because of time constrains.
    Excellent points. I actually have no problem with a tragic ending of Daenerys going literally insane and having crazy visions of grandeur and thinking she's a literal dragon, much like Aerys II Targaryen before he tried to burn down King's Landing. It's just that D&D suck at delivering us to that point, whereas Martin would do a much better job of it and make us believe that she went mad, cuckoo or bonkers, not just drunk with power.

    Plenty of warlords throughout history have sacked and burned cities, Genghis Khan being a prime example, and Khal Drogo himself would have raped and pillaged King's Landing. The difference here is that it doesn't fit at all with Daenerys' previous actions and comes out of the freaking blue without any prior buildup, just super weak foreshadowing that only kind of makes sense in hindsight. That's not great storytelling. I guess it's what one should expect from D&D, the guys who gave us Deadpool with laser eyes and a sewn-up mouth in X-Men: Wolverine Origins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    That was deeply satisfying. Thanks for sharing. Kudos to the actors of the show for all their hard work and all the brilliant directors like Miguel Sapochnik and exceptional cinematographers who produced a real work of art, even if D&D's written script and plot are disappointing floppy failures. We also can't fault Ramin Djawadi for his excellent composition of the original soundtrack. He's a Hans Zimmer in the making.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Yeah, but... the signs were there. Dany's scary dogmatism was already a thing in early seasons, and she's off pulled unreasonable executions, too. IMO the main problem is that her character development in Season 7/8 is condensed into so few episodes.
    Except for the fact that you're confusing executions based on logical political decisions with indiscriminate slaughter. These are not the same thing. Our beloved characters Ned Stark and Jon Snow have executed people before. Jon executed a little kid, Ollie, but we understand why he did it and how it was justified. We have no sense of that here with Daenerys other than she vaguely wants to rule through fear all of the sudden. She could have accomplished that by melting the Red Keep. Instead she decided to put a dent into the local economy and GDP of Westeros by annihilating its largest city.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    So...stop acting surprised.
    To steal a line from Qyburn:

    https://i.imgur.com/G9xFxnU.jpg


    We understand nothing of the sort, Gaidin. Your D&D style foreshadowing is vulnerable and easy to criticize. Your arguments about character arcs and development are battle wary and depleted, while ours have been reinforced with a torrent of memes and common sense critiques.

    Again, I have no problem with characters sacking and pillaging and raping and burning things to the ground in the fictional world of ASOIF and HBO's Game of Thrones. In fact, it's what we'd expect from Dothraki and the Iron Born, if not the Wildlings/Freefolk when they come south of the Wall. What we don't expect to see is that sort of behavior exuded by Daenerys, who has never targeted civilians directly and has almost always gone after specific targets that she felt should be righteously punished. For instance, when she sacked Astapor, she didn't use her dragons to burn the Unsullied slaves. She commanded the slaves to kill their masters for abusing and oppressing them for generations. She became so righteous about her cause that she refused the Yunkai masters' suggestion that they fund her voyage to Westeros, instead making it her mission to free their slaves as well.

    I'd have no problem with Daenerys eating babies alive and molesting prepubescent girls with sharpened stakes in King's Landing if D&D had spent a decent amount of time getting us to believe that she has gone totally insane. Instead they tried to convince us in the span of literally one episode that she went bonkers. It's just not believable. Just two episodes ago she was literally saving the entire North from a zombie apocalypse. Come on, Gaidin, you can't defend this breakneck speed at which the show is moving. The pacing is ridiculous and you know it.

    D&D clearly just want to wrap things up so they can go and ruin Star Wars next.

  19. #10379

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by SturmChurro View Post
    Yep! How many seasons did she spend building up that army to specifically take King's Landing, and she could have just used ONE of her dragons at any point in time to take it. Like, back then I don't even think they had the ballistae. She could have took King's Landing and had her 'army' take out the Night King at the same damn time!
    Like why keep mentioning Dorne and how the new prince pledges loyalty and not have any soldiers from Dorne in the battle? Cersei had a bunch of royalty from Dorne murdered. They should have been the first to stand against her.
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  20. #10380

    Default Re: Game of Thrones: TV Series - Season 8 (Book spoilers in tags with warning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Except for the fact that you're confusing executions based on logical political decisions with indiscriminate slaughter. These are not the same thing. Our beloved characters Ned Stark and Jon Snow have executed people before. Jon executed a little kid, Ollie, but we understand why he did it and how it was justified. We have no sense of that here with Daenerys other than she vaguely wants to rule through fear all of the sudden. She could have accomplished that by melting the Red Keep. Instead she decided to put a dent into the local economy and GDP of Westeros by annihilating its largest city.
    Well at any rate, it seems that most of us are in agreement that more time was needed developing her story arc to make it all more plausible.


    D&D clearly just want to wrap things up so they can go and ruin Star Wars next.
    They'd be a little late to that particular party, wouldn't they? I mean, after what Lucas did to his own creation and more importantly, Jar Jar Abrams and the Disney SW show...

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