[Discussion] Making the most of the CA modding summit

[T.C.]

As most of us know, CA are holding a modding summit at the end of July. The official thread here has become bogged down with chatter that is, by and large, irrelevant and we have lost the ability to in any meaningful way co-ordinate questions we want answered. I propose that a publicly viewable, but invite only posting permissions forum be set up in the TW General Discussion, Resources and Multiplayer section of the site, where modders can co-ordinate the questions we want answered without the interference of A.) CA flamers, B.) People with little modding knowledge who ask pointless questions like "how can we make new campaign maps"*, or questions that the modding community at large already knows, or C.) General off topic chat. I am suggesting a forum rather than a private thread, as one discussion thread can become very hard to follow. I will co-ordinate the first round of invites in a public manner, after which anyone who is invited may invite people they feel have been left behind.

This opportunity may only come once, and many of the most skilled and knowledgeable modders cannot afford to travel to London for this event. As such, it will benefit all modders if those people can get the questions they want answered put to the CA staff.

Also, it seems from CA posts that this summit will focus on Shogun 2 modding. However, many of the questions about Shogun 2 will be highly relevant about games back as far as Empire: Total War. I personally don't expect many RTW or M2TW questions to be handled, but I'm sure we can all agree that the newer games need this kind of support much more.


*This may seem relevant to some people, but it's not. There's already a team of modders working on the campaign maps for the new games and the have much more specific questions which will further our understanding of the campaign map file formats.

[DARTH VADER]

You are asking for a temporary hidden forum where access will be given only to chosen members. Seems fine to me to try it out.

[MasterBigAb]

Your idea isn't bad
Or parts of it, you can't just "exclude" someone because his modding skills aren't as good as person x's.

I don't think this is a Curia issue though.
If at all it might be a matter of Content, or may be should be in the Forum Magnum or Q&S - but I think talking to the Hexers so they can chat and decide about it seems like a good idea to me.

[Aikanár]

I don't think this is a Curia issue though.
If at all it might be a matter of Content, or may be should be in the Forum Magnum or Q&S - but I think talking to the Hexers so they can chat and decide about it seems like a good idea to me.

While I agree with you that this does not need any curial decision to make it work, I'm very curious why this should be "if at all" a matter of Content or why somebody would need HEX to decide for anything related to this?
As far as I remember the invitation is open to all, thus if T.C. or any citizen might feel the desire to open a project on it, independed of official parts of TWC, then there's -like you mentioned as well- always:

Article V. The Forum Magnum

The main function of this forum is as a place where the whole Citizens community can pool ideas and start projects and also invite normal members to join in. They can request help and post their interests in the main section and discuss possible projects. The use of the forum depends on the will of the Citizens and it is open to all ideas. The Forum Magnum is situated in the “Capitol” Category of the site.

Within this forum any Civitates can request the creation of a sub forum in which he/she wishes to assemble other Civitates/members and formulate a project which is in some way beneficial to the community. The request must be sent to the Curator who can reject the creation of the sub forum if it is deemed by him unnecessary. However, if declined the Civitates can call for a vote in the Curia and if passed by a majority of 51% the sub forum must be created.

The Administrative Council is free to use the Forum Magnum to set up any project they deem necessary. The Creator of the forum is responsible for the admission and rejection of any Civitates to his project.

No curial decision needed, just pm the CVRATOR and ask for your project to be opened in the Forum Magnum and invite those members you might like to invite and who happen to would like to work with you.

You/we would not deny anybody of public participation in the general discussion while you can have your project.

Besides that, Bolk has pretty much expressed what my personal thoughts on this matter are.

[T.C.]

Besides that, Bolk has pretty much expressed what my personal thoughts on this matter are.

No offence to Bolkonsky, but he has completely missed my intention. The idea was a co-ordination area for a few people, not an area where a few people decided who is worthy to travel to London and speak with CA.

[m_1512]

Please read what I said again.

Regardless of moderation, the current thread has proved hopeless in any attempts to co-ordinate questions.

The solution is simple. Open a new one, and update the OP with the questions and answers.

The point of this is for experienced modders, not newbies to get their questions together.

Really? The point is that everyone is important. From the who's who to the aspiring modders.

As Jom said, ensuring the right questions get asked and answered at the summit. If newbies want to go and ask questions, I'm not trying to stop them. Also, if newbies want to make themselves a forum space to spend a day asking CA what they could learn at these forums, they may feel free to. What I am trying to do is get some space for the top level questions to be co-ordinated.

All that can be done without letting anyone out.

I'm not trying to be elitist, but the fact is we don't need people who can't tell a string from an integer posting on threads related to binary questions, we don't need people who can't tell Photoshop from MS Paint posting on threads relating to graphical questions, and we don't need people who can't tell .ESF from .Pack posting on threads where we're discussing file formats.

Even a newbie would know that.

This is not elitist, it's just practical. The information we learn will be shared to newcomer modders after this event. the questions we are trying to put together will only occupy a small part of the day this event is held on, it would be nice if we were given a chance to make the most of it.

And by the way, whether not someone has access to this forum makes no impact on their right/ability to attend the summit.

Let everyone ask questions. The elite can then decide which to ask at the summit.

No offence to Bolkonsky, but he has completely missed my intention. The idea was a co-ordination area for a few people, not an area where a few people decided who is worthy to travel to London and speak with CA.

Bolonsky got it right actually. Again, there can be no judging of who is worthy or not on this site. As for London, it is actually a question of who can afford the visit.


Just my 2 shillings.
Lastly, like the elected moderator discussion, don't take it personal. This is purely discussion.

[T.C.]

I'm not even going to debate with you any further. You're taking a question relating to modding and turning it into an equality matter - which it isn't. I'm not trying to deny anyone the time to ask a question, yet you seem to only see it as that. What I'm trying to do is to make a co-ordination area for people with very specific questions, not an area where we decide every single question that will be asked on the day.

[.Mitch.]

No, I oppose anything like this.

In all seriousness just give me local moderator permissions in that thread, I will delete all of the with extreme prejudice. As a realist, I think we need to keep in mind that it is extremely likely that this is attempt by CA to gain some points with the community, not to speak to a few people in detail about file formats. They won't want to be keeping behind doors something that is inevitably aimed at reaching a winder community. It's self defeating.

And with all due respect and whatever, they're voluntary moderators, not paid blah blah blah etc etc, but whoever are the moderator in that section are pretty rubbish. Two pretty unique and important interactions with CA currently in the area, the modding summit and the CA map competition. Both heavily suffering from extremely off topic crap, I can only imagine for CraigTWC how much of a turn off it is to carry out sincere community interaction when having to swim through all the endless crap. This has also been the case in every single other CA created thread in the past, see the modding questions one for a shining example.

tldr;
The answer isn't in hiding away from the plebs who post rubbish, it's in actually moderating when moderating is needed more than ever on this forum.

A real opportunity going to waste, just like the questions thread, just my 2p.

[Radzeer]

No, I oppose anything like this.

In all seriousness just give me local moderator permissions in that thread, I will delete all of the with extreme prejudice. As a realist, I think we need to keep in mind that it is extremely likely that this is attempt by CA to gain some points with the community, not to speak to a few people in detail about file formats. They won't want to be keeping behind doors something that is inevitably aimed at reaching a winder community. It's self defeating.

And with all due respect and whatever, they're voluntary moderators, not paid blah blah blah etc etc, but whoever are the moderator in that section are pretty rubbish. Two pretty unique and important interactions with CA currently in the area, the modding summit and the CA map competition. Both heavily suffering from extremely off topic crap, I can only imagine for CraigTWC how much of a turn off it is to carry out sincere community interaction when having to swim through all the endless crap. This has also been the case in every single other CA created thread in the past, see the modding questions one for a shining example.

tldr;
The answer isn't in hiding away from the plebs who post rubbish, it's in actually moderating when moderating is needed more than ever on this forum.

A real opportunity going to waste, just like the questions thread, just my 2p.

Well, thanks for calling our work rubbish there.

First of all, if you have issues with moderation, take it to the appropriate forum. You can also report posts that are off topic, you know.
Second of all, that thread is partly off topic because CA/Craig has not been responding often. What do you expect, really? He puts out an idea like this which really gets people hyped up, and then leaves it alone. Of course, people will bring up all their issues. If they (CA) feel it's crap, well, they created it for themselves.
And finally, in that particular thread it is not easy to tell what is off topic. I can guarantee that people could make arguments that everything is on topic because it is all talk about modding.

Oh, and if you think this is a CA PR stunt, why are you concerned with their well-being in those threads?

[m_1512]

@T.C: And how would you distinguish whom to allow in and whom to keep out?

[T.C.]

@T.C: And how would you distinguish whom to allow in and whom to keep out?

I would invite people I know as established modders who won't waste time with pointless questions (ie people I've worked with before). Then, everyone who is invited may do likewise. If someone messages us and asks to join, I'm not going to ask them to prove their worth; if they do join and start CA flaming/ asking spammy questions (e.g. "lets make demands for CA to make a construction kit like Skyrim") then it's no big deal to get them removed.

[m_1512]

I would invite people I know as established modders who won't waste time with pointless questions (ie people I've worked with before).

So, objectively, this means that you wish to play judge of who is worthy to attend and otherwise. This I think would seem tad bit elitist.

Then, everyone who is invited may do likewise.

Now, they in turn can play judge.

If someone messages us and asks to join, I'm not going to ask them to prove their worth;

Then, a genuinely intersted person (not yet a modder) or a newbie modder would stand no chance.

if they do join and start CA flaming/ asking spammy questions (e.g. "lets make demands for CA to make a construction kit like Skyrim") then it's no big deal to get them removed.

Either way, that's moderation's job which they do always.

[T.C.]

Then, a genuinely intersted person (not yet a modder) or a newbie modder would stand no chance.

Please read what I said again.


Regardless of moderation, the current thread has proved hopeless in any attempts to co-ordinate questions.

The point of this is for experienced modders, not newbies to get their questions together. As Jom said, ensuring the right questions get asked and answered at the summit. If newbies want to go and ask questions, I'm not trying to stop them. Also, if newbies want to make themselves a forum space to spend a day asking CA what they could learn at these forums, they may feel free to. What I am trying to do is get some space for the top level questions to be co-ordinated.

I'm not trying to be elitist, but the fact is we don't need people who can't tell a string from an integer posting on threads related to binary questions, we don't need people who can't tell Photoshop from MS Paint posting on threads relating to graphical questions, and we don't need people who can't tell .ESF from .Pack posting on threads where we're discussing file formats.

This is not elitist, it's just practical. The information we learn will be shared to newcomer modders after this event. the questions we are trying to put together will only occupy a small part of the day this event is held on, it would be nice if we were given a chance to make the most of it.

And by the way, whether not someone has access to this forum makes no impact on their right/ability to attend the summit.

[Genius of the Restoration]

I'm not at all involve with anything that's going on in that thread, but, if there are problems getting key modding-related questions across amid a production line of spam, I think setting up a separate forum that requires posting permissions could be a good idea. They could be granted freely so that it's not too much stress, but enough to dissuade those who aren't interested in getting the details anyway. An alternative could be having a local mod who follows the thread to just edit the OP with a list of pertinent questions so the CA reps don't have to go through everything and read all the comments and counter-comments. Either could work. If Craig was happy for a couple of members to collate the important questions and leave out the stuff that people already know etc. then that second option would be less of a hassle.

[Jom]

Maybe you have much higher standards than I do, Mitch, but I read through the last 6 pages of that thread up to Craig's latest replies, and I did not see anything I would classify as "", whatever the word hiding behind the smiley may be. What I did see, however, was 3 thread warnings by 2 different moderators, and about 10 deleted posts. I don't plan to read the entire thread all the way through, but I haven't encountered any posts that I would deem as useless or spam. I realise that it must be frustrating for you to be stuck quite far away from where the summit is being held, not be able to attend it, and not see - in your view - the correct questions being asked in the thread, but I don't think you should blame the moderators for what simply seems to be your overly high standards.

As for the sub-forum idea, I support it; it seems to be a practical way to ensure the right questions get asked and answered at the summit.

[Bolkonsky]

No member of this site is in any position to judge what member should be kept out of a public event. Craig is not an idiot, I'm sure opening the official thread in Total War: Shogun 2 General Discussion was a deliberate move. My advice is to lose the elitist attitude, and work with what you have. TWC is about participating. There will be other events and opportunities, such as at the modding summit itself. Remember that all the members make TWC what it is, and that something like the modding summit might not even happen if it weren't for TWC. Who are you to judge who's allowed to ask questions or not? This is an absolutely terrible idea, and violates the integrity of TWC itself.

In the event that off topic posts are a problem, just report them. Moderation has been doing a fine job in that thread, and in the event that it becomes overwhelming, they can assign more manpower to it. It's not an issue of keeping the thread clean. Just keep in mind that people aren't on 24/7

[Genius of the Restoration]

It would have to be kept open to all comers if it was to be run in a forum with limited posting rights. The whole concept isn't a terrible idea. It could lead to a better way to address key questions and that's what the thread should be about. There's little point in CA answering questions that are already known and can be answered by community members already. This is one way to organise a more efficient system for CA to answer better questions and I think that's a fine thing to aspire to. It just needs to be open to all members who want to ask their questions.

[MasterBigAb]

I agree you cannot exclude any-one who'd like to participate. However a subsection could be useful any-ways.

They could be granted freely so that it's not too much stress, but enough to dissuade those who aren't interested in getting the details anyway.

So I support it as long as you cannot exclude anyone if he/she would like to join and take part.

[Radzeer]

What CA is planning to do is sort of unexpected, so this is the chance for the community to rise to the challenge. You modder guys should open a thread somewhere to come up with a coordinated list of major issues either by engine or genre.

This is what I said after Craig announced this idea. I think it's important to have a coordinated set of questions and experienced people to ask them, but being inclusive is just as important otherwise the modders could be seen by missing something or being elitist by the community here. Maybe a thread where the modders can discuss and another where the community can ask questions and give ideas. The modders then could take what they want (and what would work) and maybe even explain at the end why they did not take other ideas.

[Navajo Joe]

The questions need to be co-ordinated and there certainly needs to be organisation, so that time and energy is not wasted trawling thru lots of posts. It is an opportunity to have an input to CA and to make the most of.