[Proposal] Battle System Modifications + Unit Types

[Barry Goldwater]

It's come to my attention that, IMO, our battle system could use a bit of an overhaul. ATM unit types and the like aren't counted, and the system is solely reliant on rolls. While it does provide a speedy resolution, it limits RP owing to roll-imposed restraints. So I've been talking this matter over with Narf & Bonez for a bit, and come up with two proposals to embellish the existing system...

1. Concerning battles. ATM our characters just have their fates rolled (death/wounding/capture/going free) along with the battle outcome & casualties, no room for a duel (at least not one that would actively involve your Duel/Archery/Joust skills) or anything of the sort. Thus I propose the following:

A character fighting on the front-line could be matched up with an enemy character, at least in the wing/center he's been assigned to. Then a duel with the usual rolls & stuff is done for them, instead of randomly delivering them their fate. A character without an engaged partner would still have his fate rolled as before.

For example, say A/B/C/D are fighting E/F/G. One character to each flank & one to the center, with D also being assigned to the right flank of Army 1 with C. A would then be matched against E, B VS. F, C VS. G, and D would have his fate rolled.

When there are multiple characters present in a flank or center, like say 6 characters apiece on both sides' center, the matchups could be done randomly or by agreement between the players. So for example we could have A Vs. E, B Vs. F, etc. matchups.

2. Concerning units. Right now we don't have different units, just a catch-all soldier. Obviously there are problems with lumping knights together with raggedy peasants, for example. So what I propose is a division of units, each with their own die value:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Light Infantry - Peasant conscripts, skirmishers and other such base rabble. Probably will form the bulk of any lord's army, just like a classical feudal force. 1d6.

Heavy Infantry - Dismounted men-at-arms, professional mercenaries, and so on. Equally capable of giving & receiving punishment. 1d10.

Pikemen - Whether they're peasants or armored professionals, these guys carry pikes into battle, obviously, and will be your primary anti-cavalry force. 1d10, with a bonus (let's say +5 or +6?) when engaging cavalry.

Archers - Exactly what it says on the tin, long-range missile troops armed with bows, crossbows and the like. 1d8.

Light Cavalry - Outriders, hobilars, light lancers. Fast, maneuverable but lightly equipped horsemen. 1d12.

Heavy Cavalry - The tanks of a medieval army. Knights, men-at-arms, heavy lancers. 1d20.

And special units like Elephants, Goldenheart Longbowmen, etc. that could have their own special dice pools. The GC's Elephants for example would've been the P1500 Monster to the conventional Heavy Cav's M4 Sherman (to go with the tank analogy) and would have 1d40 rolls to reflect this.

We can work within the confines of the current levy numbers so we don't have so much work to handle, ex. a Small Levy province (2500 men) could have their levy divided into 1000 LI/500 Archers/350 HI/325 Pikes/300 LC/25 HC. And so on.

Lastly, regions could skew their troop numbers one way or the other. For example, the Vale and the Reach both have the strongest knightly traditions, and so get more HC at the expense of other units (taking the above example, reimagine it as 1000 LI/500 Archers/300 HI/300 Pikes/300 LC/100 HC). The Westerlands, being the richest region in metals, could field more Heavy Infantry and Cavalry alike, but not as much of the latter as the Reach or Vale (ex. 1000 LI/300 Archers/400 HI/400 Pikes/250 LC/75 HC). Ironborn would have practically no cavalry but more heavy infantry to compensate, the North focuses on light cavalry & heavy infantry, and so on.

Battles would still be decided by rolls of course, but this both allows for more RP concerning your army's composition (ex. a horde of 10k Light Inf is likely to be described as 'ooh look at that horde of filthy peasant conscripts', whereas a force of heavy cav & inf is the one likely to be described with something like 'armor on armor shone...') and actually makes said composition matter. All that has to be done is to roll each unit separately and then add up the totals for comparison. So hopefully, we'll no longer see the GC get curbstomped by Summer Islanders and the like again

Suggestions and opinions are, as always, welcome.

[Pericles of Athens]

Thats not really that true, I mean light infantry(in Dorne) can be elite, so can light cavalry(well in Dorne). Most of Dorne force will be light and I dont want that to make them all peasants.

[Barry Goldwater]

You wouldn't have to RP them that way - instead of writing off '20,000 sand-eating Dornish peasants, brandishing pitchforks and rocks, march into sight...' you could go '20,000 Dornish light infantrymen, in their quality leather and light mail and brandishing gleaming spears & shields, march into sight...'. In any case, a sufficiently large unit of light inf can still take down knights, for example 2000 LI (1d6) can still beat 100 HC (1d20) as long as they roll anything other than a 1, even if those HCs land a perfect 20.

And again, regional bonuses could be applied. So Dorne, for example, could have a bonus to their light troops' dice rolls, or just get more light troops.

[Bonez]

Or Dorne's light troops could be counted in a heavy troop category, skill of the forces will need to be accounted for. Also, all levies (as shown from books) would be spearmen, pikemen, archers, peasants, and maybe a few light horse. All other troops, heavy infantry, elite infantry, knights, heavy cav, are all troops that would need special and specific training to be able to perform to the standard that they are supposed to, and rolled for on the field.
This means that to do it right people would have to invest money to get the best, something I'm all for. I mean sure the Reach could get some good hedge knights to serve as heavy cavalry, yet these hedge knights would want pay above that of a peasant for their services.

[Pericles of Athens]

I would say Dornish units should be more like this. As Dorne should have no heavy well anything.

Dornish light infantrymen 1d10 (professional light infantry not rabble)
Dornish Archers 1d10 (better archers)
Dornish Light Cavalry 1d14-1d15(only horse archers in all the houses and better light cav)


In another note about Dorne, I think any Dornish units in Dorne should get a +? to rolls. Adding to this non-Dornish heavy units should get a -6 to rolls and any other non-Dornish unit in Dorne should get a -3 to rolls. This is to show Dornish superiority in Dorne/heat and the fact that heavy anything should be very much so screwed in Dorne and the fact that even the lights from the other houses cant fight in Dorne.

[Bonez]

You work like the man in your avatar Pericles... You already have + to all battles in Dorne, on that logic (not half bad to think about) I should get some nice little bonuses in the North as few men are accustomed to the cold. They can survive it, it is not to the extent of Dorne, but they aren't as good.

Like the idea, think the whole thing needs work. Willing to do some work, willing to help make it work, think that this would be revoluntionary for RPG's but we seriously are gonna need lots of work.

First major thing would be to make major and set in stone troop types and go from there, Dornish light infantry could be moved to HI as they are the equivalent and etc, it is going to need work a lots of it but the product shall be beautiful.

[Dance the older]

Dornish Horse Archers FTW (Think Keshiks, but sexier)

[jakev2]

I definitely like the idea of adding greater depth to troop types and therefore to battles. I also like the idea of having different numbers of certain troops available in different regions, but for Dorne I feel they should still have peasant fighters, and simply have heavy infantry replaced with light infantry, retaining the standard d10.

I also agree with having a bonus for Dornish troops fighting in Dorne and Northern troops fighting in the North, but I don't think it should be nearly as drastic as a -6, and I also think that this should only apply in the summer for Dorne and winter for the North, when the temperatures are extreme enough to make a difference. Perhaps these should be part of regional bonuses, with the other Seven Kingdoms getting other bonuses to compensate.

[Adamat]

Well, i think these rules look good, but we have to watch outto not go too far with the battle rules. This is an RPG, not an IH.

[Pericles of Athens]

Dorne is hot year round, or else invaders would have just waited to invade them in the winters. And -6 for heavy units seems right to me, have you ever been in the desert, I have and even in light cloths you can hardly move let alone a suit of tin.

And last the other regions in dorne dont have advantages like this.. So why would they get them?

[jakev2]

1. Severe winters can cause snows in Dorne, so presumably in less severe winters the climate is mild.

2. Nobody in their right minds would go through the desert, they would stay to the cooler coasts because that's where all the cities are.

3. There are many unique things about other areas of the Seven Kingdoms which should also be reflected if Dorne's climate is a part of the battles. For example, the Reach is great for growing crops, so maybe they should have a bonus to income in summer.

[Barry Goldwater]

@Rose Yup. Merc forces will still be composed of those base units, with the GC getting Elephants and Goldenheart Longbows as their special units.

@Regional bonuses I've actually been working on those with Narf. ATM I think that, as a baseline at the very least, the Reach & Riverlands should receive income bonuses, Westerlands gets cheaper equipment, North & Dorne get combat bonuses in winter/summer respectively as suggested here. Dunno what to do about Vale, Stormlands or Crownlands though.

[Dance the older]

1. Severe winters can cause snows in Dorne, so presumably in less severe winters the climate is mild.

Where is your proof for this? Nowhere in the books does it sayso.

A direct quote from author G.R.R.M. himself,

Yes, some times, in some places. The Mountains of the Moon get quite a lot of snow, the Vale and the riverlands and the west rather less, but some. King's Landing gets snow infrequently, the Storm Lands and the Reach rarely, Oldtown and Dorne almost never

Therefore, he said it himself, almost NEVER. If it did, one would guess it would be only in the moutainous regions where the altitude could somewhat sustain the cold (northern Dorne/North-western Dorne). But as for places like Sunspear, Planky Town, Lemonwood, Salt Shore, Hell Holt, Godsgrace, Vaith, I would even doubt Starfall has snow, as it is even more south than Oldtown. The only thing you can bring into the equation is the moutainous region, would be more than habitable for snowy conditions in the event of winter. I would imagine no snow whatsoever, normally. (Source, 3rd paragraph from bottom)

2. Nobody in their right minds would go through the desert, they would stay to the cooler coasts because that's where all the cities are.

Not all, but most. The Dornish are adept at moving through the desets, the unique "Dornish Sand Steed" mount,

They are able to run for a day and night and another day, and never tire.

This would provide an amazing mount for horse archers to do hit and run guerrilla attacks on "coastal landing forces", and retreat deep into the deserts (where the homefield Dornish control the wells as to regenerate their hydration). As you all know, Keshiks (Mongolian Horse Archers), were one of the most effective military units in medieval times. Surprise attacks could hurt invaders grossly.

Think of it this way.

If a few dragons couldn't subdue the Dornish in canon, then no army could either. Daeron I lost 40,000 men subduing Dorne, and it was very shortlived. And I quote,

Daeron had long felt that the continued independence of Dorne represented unfinished business for the Targaryens, and upon his ascension he vowed to rectify his ancestors' mistake. Upon taking the throne he set to conquer Dorne, which he succeeded in, becoming the first Targaryen King to conquer Dorne and unite all seven kingdoms for the first time.
Following his conquest he wrote the book Conquest of Dorne about his achievement. The book was known for its style and simplicity but in it Daeron exaggerated the numbers of his foes to make his conquest seem greater.
Unfortunately, Daeron's conquest didn't last. It was undone in a fortnight when a clever trap killed the steward, Lord Tyrell, that Daeron had left to rule Dorne. His death sparked a great uprising that overthrew most of the conquest. Daeron lost forty thousand men trying to hold Dorne, culminating in his own death during the uprising. At that time he was only eighteen.

Source

Even undermanned, the Dornish are swift and relentless fighters. Mass casualties would be a necessary outcome of an invasion.

3. There are many unique things about other areas of the Seven Kingdoms which should also be reflected if Dorne's climate is a part of the battles. For example, the Reach is great for growing crops, so maybe they should have a bonus to income in summer.

Perhaps with some proofs from the books, however with enough substantial proof that invasions of Dorne have been thwarted and they are a mighty force to be reckoned with, it makes sense for them to have extreme defensive capabilities and skill at warfare, especially on Dornish soil (or sand if you prefer).


A recommendation I made to Pericles, was in the event of an invasion of Dorne. (Part of regional bonus of the country itself), a NPC/Or Moderator controlled archer-mounted Sand Steed force would form, and by a D4 roll, 1-4, would determine the size of the force. 1 for 500, - 4 for 2,000 strong.

Then for example a roll of 3, 1,500 Dornish Sand Steed mounted Horse Archers would spawn and then there would be a D20 roll on a random invading army, (ex. D20x100), a roll of 18, which would result in the deaths of 1,800 invaders, due to unsuspecting Horse Archer guerilla attacks. Perhaps this could be used several times in the event of an invasion. Then perhaps a 4/20 chance of their escape. (Assuming below 4 means they sustain casualties and 5-20 means they escape nearly unscathed). Just an idea.

[jakev2]

Therefore, he said it himself, almost NEVER. If it did, one would guess it would be only in the moutainous regions where the altitude could somewhat sustain the cold (northern Dorne/North-western Dorne). But as for places like Sunspear, Planky Town, Lemonwood, Salt Shore, Hell Holt, Godsgrace, Vaith, I would even doubt Starfall has snow, as it is even more south than Oldtown. The only thing you can bring into the equation is the moutainous region, would be more than habitable for snowy conditions in the event of winter. I would imagine no snow whatsoever, normally.

We know that winter in Westeros acts very differently to that in our own world, and I seem to remember G.R.R.M confirmed that it works through some form of magic. It affects the entirety of the continent, even the hot places which in our own world would not be affected because of how the equator affects climate. So even if snows are extremely rare in Dorne in winter, that does not mean that it is not mild, maybe average temperatures of about 10-15C (about what Southern England has in May, I use england as an example as the seasons have a fairly large impact. It hasn't snowed in May in Southern England in the last 100 years, probably longer than that.)

Not all, but most. The Dornish are adept at moving through the desets, the unique "Dornish Sand Steed" mount

Yet another reason why nobody else would go through the deserts.

Think of it this way.

If a few dragons couldn't subdue the Dornish in canon, then no army could either. Daeron I lost 40,000 men subduing Dorne, and it was very shortlived. And I quote,

Even undermanned, the Dornish are swift and relentless fighters. Mass casualties would be a necessary outcome of an invasion.

A compromise needs to be reached, because a Dorne which is impossible to invade even if outnumbered 10 to 1 is simply game breaking. Many of the border castles already have bonuses to reflect how defensible Dorne is.

[Pericles of Athens]

But by the lore Dorne should be almost impossible to invade and win, and if somehow you do win it should be impossible to keep for any great length of time.

If Dragons and a united Westeros could not bring Dorne to heel no single house or really any number of houses should be able to.

[Dance the older]

There's a reason most Kingdoms were subdued in canon within years of the Targaryen landing. It took 160 years for the Targaryen's to subdue Dorne, and this was by marriage finally, not conquest. If one is bold enough to invade Dorne, it would result in inevitable pile up of Westerosi corpses, but not as many Dornish ones as other Westerosi

[Adamat]

But still. If we go all canon on this, no-one could ever EVER end my house, since they hold the Eyrie.

[Dance the older]

But still. If we go all canon on this, no-one could ever EVER end my house, since they hold the Eyrie.

That's easy. Surround it while their all trapped up top. They will starve eventually

[Barry Goldwater]

Righto, my new levies # proposal with differentiated units:

The Reach, The Vale:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Advantage: More Light Cav & Heavy Cav.
Disadvantage: Less quality infantry.

Very Large: 10,000
5,000 Light Inf
750 Heavy Inf
750 Polearms
1,500 Archers
1,500 Light Cavalry
500 Heavy Cavalry

Large: 7,500
4,000 Light Inf
500 Heavy Inf
500 Polearms
1,000 Archers
1,000 Light Cavalry
500 Heavy Cavalry

Medium: 5,000
2,000 Light Inf
500 Heavy Inf
500 Polearms
750 Archers
1,000 Light Cavalry
350 Heavy Cavalry

Small: 2,500
1,000 Light Inf
300 Heavy Inf
300 Polearms
600 Archers
200 Light Cavalry
100 Heavy Cavalry

Westerlands, Crownlands:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Advantage: More Heavy Inf & Heavy Cav.
Disadvantage: Less light troops.

Very Large: 10,000
5,000 Light Inf
2,000 Heavy Inf
1,000 Polearms
700 Archers
850 Light Cavalry
450 Heavy Cavalry

Large: 7,500
4,000 Light Inf
1,500 Heavy Inf
700 Polearms
500 Archers
400 Light Cavalry
400 Heavy Cavalry

Medium: 5,000
2,500 Light Inf
1,000 Heavy Inf
550 Polearms
500 Archers
300 Light Cavalry
150 Heavy Cavalry

Small: 2,500
1,000 Light Inf
700 Heavy Inf
300 Polearms
250 Archers
175 Light Cavalry
75 Heavy Cavalry

Stormlands, Riverlands, The North:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Advantage: More Heavy Inf & Polearms.
Disadvantage: Less Cav.

Very Large: 10,000
4,000 Light Inf
2,000 Heavy Inf
2,000 Polearms
1,500 Archers
350 Light Cavalry
150 Heavy Cavalry

Large: 7,500
3,000 Light Inf
1,500 Heavy Inf
1,500 Polearms
1,250 Archers
200 Light Cavalry
50 Heavy Cavalry

Medium: 5,000
1,500 Light Inf
1,250 Heavy Inf
1,250 Polearms
750 Archers
200 Light Cavalry
50 Heavy Cavalry

Small: 2,500
1,000 Light Inf
600 Heavy Inf
600 Polearms
200 Archers
75 Light Cavalry
25 Heavy Cavalry

Dorne:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Advantage: More Light Cav & Archers.
Disadvantage: Less melee infantry & Heavy Cav.

Very Large: 10,000
2,000 Light Inf
2,000 Heavy Inf
2,000 Polearms
2,000 Archers
1,750 Light Cavalry
250 Heavy Cavalry

Large: 7,500
1,000 Light Inf
1,500 Heavy Inf
1,500 Polearms
1,500 Archers
1,750 Light Cavalry
250 Heavy Cavalry

Medium: 5,000
1,000 Light Inf
1,000 Heavy Inf
1,000 Polearms
1,000 Archers
850 Light Cavalry
150 Heavy Cavalry

Small: 2,500
500 Light Inf
500 Heavy Inf
500 Polearms
500 Archers
450 Light Cavalry
50 Heavy Cavalry

Iron Isles:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Advantage: None, really. (weaker on land than sea)
Disadvantage: No Cav except on Medium Levy, no Heavy Cav whatsoever.

Medium: 5,000
2,500 Light Infantry
1,000 Heavy Inf
1,000 Polearms
350 Archers
150 Light Cavalry
0 Heavy Cavalry

Small: 2,500
1,000 Light Infantry
750 Heavy Inf
500 Polearms
250 Archers
0 Light Cavalry
0 Heavy Cavalry

Very Small: 1,000
500 Light Infantry
250 Heavy Infantry
150 Polearms
100 Archers
0 Light Cavalry
0 Heavy Cavalry

Night's Watch:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Advantage: +1 to all battle rolls with Wildlings & Others.
Disadvantage: Tiny #'s, worse than the Ironborn.

Castle Black: 1,000
400 Heavy Inf
200 Polearms
200 Archers
150 Light Cav
50 Heavy Cav

Shadow Tower, East Watch: 750
350 Heavy Inf
150 Polearms
150 Archers
35 Light Cav
15 Heavy Cav

Westwatch, Brandon's Gift, New Gift: 500
250 Heavy Inf
100 Polearms
100 Archers
35 Light Cav
15 Heavy Cav

Mercs:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Golden Company: 10,000
Advantage: Special units, +2 to all rolls (elite, professional status)
Disadvantage: Limited #'s.
4,500 Heavy Inf
2,000 Polearms
1,000 Archers
1,000 Light Cav
1,000 Heavy Cav
500 Goldenheart Longbows (special, 1d30)
100 War Elephants (special, 1d50)

Discuss, approve, shout it down...

[Dance the older]

Goodjob I like it barry.

Perhaps some horse archers for Dorne