question on rebellion loyalty

[sapiens86]

first of i have to say what a gread mod this is and i am fully immsersed with RS. it is definitely on par with EB if not better

i am playing as Rome 2.1a. During the 2nd rebellion on the 85 settlement mark, is there any indication which of my FMs are gonna change side? will FMs with higher command stars or further away from the capital have a higher chance? or isit totally random? if i pull everyone back to Rome will it matters? is there anything i can do to predict/change the outcome of which FMs are gonna rebel?

thanks in advance!

[tone]

2.1 doesn't use loyalty so they will all stay loyal, however a selection of settlements (about half your total) will rebel by province......2.5 is different and we've added loyalty, and there it's pretty random.

[SMoVader]

I've come across what I think is a problem in the loyalty system. I've had armies rebel way before the reforms, the generals' loyalty has just plummeted for no apparent reason other than him leading an army outside of Italy. As I'm only 25-30 years into the campaign it highly frustrates me that my experienced legions are rebelling when historically at that time it's ridiculous for them to do that, especially when they are led by Patrician family members who's family have prominence in the Republic. I hope this is fixed in the patch because it's sapping my will to play atm.

[tone]

Are you leaving them outside a settlement for too long? They only have a limited imperium before loyalty drops.

[Tilorius Coilean Hibernus]

Are you leaving them outside a settlement for too long? They only have a limited imperium before loyalty drops.

Interesting to know. Explains how a ten-star general, Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Hispanicus Africanus saw fit to revolt with my most experienced legion (all 1+ gold chevrons) and conquer half of Africa from me, enabling the remaining Carthaginian faction to retake half of Spain. Boy was I mad.

[Arvedui01]

Interesting to know. Explains how a ten-star general, Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Hispanicus Africanus saw fit to revolt with my most experienced legion (all 1+ gold chevrons) and conquer half of Africa from me, enabling the remaining Carthaginian faction to retake half of Spain. Boy was I mad.

I share in your guys' frustration. Scipio the Elder (or whomever the starting Scipio family member is,) I lost to loyalty. Made very little sense to me at this stage of the game. He was my best general at 7 stars. He had a full stack of my best troops and you think he would rebel and decide to march on Roma or something logical like that. Nope. He was having great success against Carthage just outside of Emporiae when next turn I see the stack go blue and my control over it lost.

The only remotely logical reason, somewhat humorously, that I can think of for his misbehavior was his age. He must have been angry with the government for extending his service so long. After rebelling he just stayed by Emporiae with the entire stack of veterans. Standing there... just standing there for the remainder of his traitorous life. He was around seventy when he finally died. He took no military action against myself or Carthage. All for an early retirement I suppose?

[Silius Saurus]

I share in your guys' frustration. Scipio the Elder (or whomever the starting Scipio family member is,) I lost to loyalty. Made very little sense to me at this stage of the game. He was my best general at 7 stars. He had a full stack of my best troops and you think he would rebel and decide to march on Roma or something logical like that. Nope. He was having great success against Carthage just outside of Emporiae when next turn I see the stack go blue and my control over it lost.

The only remotely logical reason, somewhat humorously, that I can think of for his misbehavior was his age. He must have been angry with the government for extending his service so long. After rebelling he just stayed by Emporiae with the entire stack of veterans. Standing there... just standing there for the remainder of his traitorous life. He was around seventy when he finally died. He took no military action against myself or Carthage. All for an early retirement I suppose?

I think that this is a fantastic feature- Romans were very jealous of their Dignitas and slights, real or imagined could turn them into dangerous rebels. Think about Catiline, Sulla and Caesar himself. I managed to dodge this bullet when one of my armies rebelled with their commander, I attacked them and the game crashed after the battle (!!). After that I look long and hard at my FM's and G's loyalty before I give them important commands. I also like to keep the disloyal types close to home in minor cities in case they get funny ideas.

What would be great that if a general rebels and captures a city, that faction could get a spawned diplomat that would seek out other generals/FM's with low loyalty and bribe them into joining the conspiracy.

[tone]

Interesting to know. Explains how a ten-star general, Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Hispanicus Africanus saw fit to revolt with my most experienced legion (all 1+ gold chevrons) and conquer half of Africa from me, enabling the remaining Carthaginian faction to retake half of Spain. Boy was I mad.

oooohhh, that's sounds painful

[naq]

But, seriously, I've not been playing Rome much since 2.5 and never had a treason but I think the mechanic here is too harsh. For example when a general have to go a long way to conquer and doesn't have the chance to stop at a settlement, or he is a bad manager and I just don't want him to enter a city to give bad penalties, there is a chance that he will rebel.

[naq]

Are you leaving them outside a settlement for too long? They only have a limited imperium before loyalty drops.

A long campaign through the wilderness without a place to rest and having some fun will surely drive someone mad.
"To hell with this poinless war, I'll be back to civilization and then Rome to kick those fools' asses.", said some rebellious general.

[Antiokhos Euergetes]

You should of hunted him down and killed him

[Diocle]

I hate the loyalty like SPQR! The rebellions for me were more than enough! Sorry, I like very much this Mod, it is the best but...loyalty!
If only a playar could choose if use the loyalty system or not!

[SMoVader]

double post ftl

[SMoVader]

So basically I have to take breaks of half a year from military campaigning in order to get round it? The limitations of the game engine mean you do not have all the men of sufficient rank to lead the legions or the ability to move them realistically to take over command. Playing to be historically realistic is unfeasible with this game, you can try by all means but it's partial at best.
This mod is the best I've played and I really enjoy it, random appearances of the slow or harsh ruler traits are acceptable but family members and legions rebelling so soon into the game I find to be a killer to my motivation for continuing the campaign. The game is limiting enough itself without more limits being put into it.
If this isn't going to be changed in the future then is there going to be an option to turn it off because I can't play what is ultimately a game how I want to play it, not to mention that rebelling legions in that period is completely inaccurate.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

.......... not to mention that rebelling legions in that period is completely inaccurate.

Can't agree - it's exactly why the Senate insisted on recalling army commanders in the Early Republic, let alone requiring Dictators to voluntarily give up their power.

If you will recall - Caesar then didn't........

This is not to mention that it is very simple for players to actually see the Loyalty of their Generals. When it drops to 3 and below, then replace them.

I've taken 4 of the test campaigns past the Reforms (really hope to get further and test later....) - and I've never had a General rebel with an army (have had a couple rebel on their own) - possibly because I replaced a few dodgy ones.

[Primo]

Can't agree - it's exactly why the Senate insisted on recalling army commanders in the Early Republic, let alone requiring Dictators to voluntarily give up their power.

If you will recall - Caesar then didn't........

This is not to mention that it is very simple for players to actually see the Loyalty of their Generals. When it drops to 3 and below, then replace them.

I've taken 4 of the test campaigns past the Reforms (really hope to get further and test later....) - and I've never had a General rebel with an army (have had a couple rebel on their own) - possibly because I replaced a few dodgy ones.

Even Generals with 1/2 rings loyalty can stay true to your cause a very long time, while one with more loyalty may rebel sooner. It's up to chance, and other things you simply don't know about - and thats just realistic.

That being said I find that there aren't many rebellions, I would rather increase their rate. It's historically accurate, too: Caesar wasn't the first to conquer Rome from the Senate, and with his assassination not even the first to truly hold it - The former was Sulla, the later Augustus.

Sulla is an excellent example for a non-civil war rebellion.

[tone]

Good point about limiting loyalty issues to later, but have you got any thoughts how we could better simulate the issue of limited Imperium for commanders?

[SMoVader]

I don't know know much about the coding of the game unfortunately though I know there are hardcoded limits, you could make it so the generals could move further but the AI may not be able to handle it. I'm guessing generals can't be teleported from Rome to another settlement or to an army or vice versa. As for simulating limited Imperium on the actual general there could be a trait system similar to the 'imposter' trait with worsening effects but there would still be the same problem with replacing the general.

The Legionaries were much more part of society before the reforms later in the Republic, it was a civic duty to serve and they were upkept by the state. It's more likely they were recalled to stop them gaining too much influence in the Senate and popularity with the masses than them becoming a threat. Alot happened between the Early Republic and the First Civil War which basically killed the Republic, in the time period at the start of the game there was a very successful general who had an extended command which was Scipio Africanus who was later forced into political exile because he was too popular and had acheived so much at a relatively young age. In the later Republic he may well have marched on Rome if he was opposed like he was but there wasn't a realistic option for such an action in his day so it is inaccurate imo.

[tone]

If you look at your generals you will see that it tells you how many years of Imperium they've had and warns you that loyalty will start dropping if you don't do anything.

[Steuben]

I was mostly able to avoid loyalty issues by putting my armys in Forts when no city nearby is available!