Two Late Roman Novels

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

I wondered if anyone else had read these two novels set in the period of Julian's rise to the purple?

Behind the Eagles admittedly has only just been released! I am reading it at the moment on Kindle and will review it later over the weekend when I have finished. I doubt anyone else has downloaded it yet - but you never know!

And also Gods and Legions which I bought for 1p (plus P+P) from Amazon. This one I suspect others may have read and wondered on what their reactions were?

[First Citizen Gallienus]

Yeah I've seen God and Legions, looks like a nice book to have. Thanks for the link SBH.

[Chelchal]

I read the portion of Behind the Eagles that Amazon lets you see. I wonder if Paul Elliott was in the military because his training scenes were quite realistic and reminded me of boot camp. Apollonius is like the kill hat Drill Instructor, pretty much slaying the recruits. We had squad leaders too, and a guide (sort of like the chief squad leader) who have nominal power over the other recruits but are also punished far more.

Naturally being under such pressure, they're kind of jerks and most other recruits dislike them. Tempers flare and recruits fight each other all the time. The drill instructors didn't really punish us for fighting, since they wanted to build up our aggression although the commissioned officers who oversaw everything disapproved and tried to quash it whenever they could. Obviously the drill instructors can't get away with the same stuff that their counterparts in the 4th century did. Our training was probably a piece of cake in comparison!

I was like Apollonius, though. I wanted to dodge responsibility and fly under the radar. And I did! I became an artist recruit, which was the biggest gaffe off billet possible.

Mark Walker's novel about the Siege of Amida is pretty good and available on Kindle.

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

Good for you!

I am almost finished Elliott's novel. I am at the part where they have burned the boats and are turning into the interior to march up the Tigris. I will be reviewing it soon but so far am torn between likeing it and shaking my head at some of the writing transitions - but it is all personal at the end of the day! He is one of the Late Roman re-enactors and is found over on RAT posting a lot. His book Last Legionary is quite good.

I have the Siege of Amida novel but have yet to get round to reading it in full. My Kindle is an app on the PC and I have yet to buy it. That means that I have sit here at this desk to read which is not the best way to do it. Elliott's novel is quite short and is my breakfast reading!

[Chelchal]

Gods and Legions is a fine book on its own merits and the battle scenes are particularly enjoyable. I happened to read it after reading Gore Vidal's Julian, so through no fault of its own, Curtis's books suffered in comparison. Vidal's novel is very polemical, but the pathos in some of the dialogue is really beautiful.

A lot of late Roman fiction is just awful though. The Romans are portrayed as lazy, cowardly, vicious and nasty after centuries of decline, finally getting their comeuppance from the Goths or what have you while wallowing in their latest round of orgies. The fact that both the pagans and Christians had a rather severe personal morality is overlooked. These decadent Romans are like decadent people everywhere at any time; there is nothing particularly Roman about them other than they might be hovering about near some marble columns.

The Roman army is invariably portrayed as a band of hapless ninnies who would be completely lost without some individual heroes or sympathetic barbarians. I'd tell you what titles I'm referring to or offer up some choice quotes, but I don't want to inflict literary terrorism on anyone.

[legio_XX]

Gods and Legions is a fine book on its own merits and the battle scenes are particularly enjoyable. I happened to read it after reading Gore Vidal's Julian, so through no fault of its own, Curtis's books suffered in comparison. Vidal's novel is very polemical, but the pathos in some of the dialogue is really beautiful.

A lot of late Roman fiction is just awful though. The Romans are portrayed as lazy, cowardly, vicious and nasty after centuries of decline, finally getting their comeuppance from the Goths or what have you while wallowing in their latest round of orgies. The fact that both the pagans and Christians had a rather severe personal morality is overlooked. These decadent Romans are like decadent people everywhere at any time; there is nothing particularly Roman about them other than they might be hovering about near some marble columns.

The Roman army is invariably portrayed as a band of hapless ninnies who would be completely lost without some individual heroes or sympathetic barbarians. I'd tell you what titles I'm referring to or offer up some choice quotes, but I don't want to inflict literary terrorism on anyone.

I agree would agree with most of what is said here save for the ninnies I thought Ford portrayed them very disciplined and tough but outmatched near the end and under inept commanders. If you want a book that will give you good action and fast pace then you will enjoy it, if you want some thing that sticks to history and keeps it bias out then this is not a good one. personally I love that book just read the prologue and you will want more.

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

It is a difficult period to write about in a convincing manner. Too many writers recycle old tropes about decadence and decline as Cherchal has so astutely pointed out. 'Eagle in the Snow' is a good exception although it resurrects a 'classic' legion as opposed to the later ones. The writing however is very poignant. I would add 'The Boat of Fate' as an interesting novel, too. With the rise in epublishing there is now an explosion of Roman war-themed novels (myself included) many of which serve up the usual legion battle fare and are really no more than British Empire/sub-Kiping narratives dressed in togas and sandals.

Elliott's 'Behind the Eagle' is refreshing and I have now finished it and reviewed it on Amazon. It has some poor writing moments but on the whole I enjoyed its pro-Christian slant against Julian and for the dirty rough image it portrays of the legionaries in this period. Talk about throwing the heroics out!

[Sertorio]

Not beneath it but behind it , you messed up my search until seeing your link on the first post, lol.
I thank you for that because it made me realize that "warrior of rome" by H. Sidebottom is already at book 5. So i need to figure it out if i wait it to be released in Portuguese, or buy the english version as i did in the "Caspian Gates". So thank you for that.

[Diocle]

I haven't read the novels, and probably I'll try them, thanks for the links SBH!

Here I want to add an humble suggestion about the abused concept of decadence: yes dear friends, you are right, too many authors use the stereotype of the corrupted and decadent Romans and the noble savage barbarians!

But.....sadly the reality of the middle III, IV and V centuries, was not very different from the stereotype: The landowners had enormous amount of lands, the beaurocracy was big, fat and corrupt from the high ranks to the basis, the army.....well after all the civil wars was no more the well trained army of the previous age, the new centralized religion was only a new tax burden for the common people, the succession to the power was not fixed, the emperors needed the eunuchs in the high ranks of the administration, because they feared every single powerful leader (in the VI c. justinian send the eunuch Narses to Italy because he feared Belisarus....), the autorities were not able to defeat the Bacaude, the numbers of poor and the numbers of poeple that had nothing to lose, because they had already lost all.....was growing, the taxes were very high but the state was not able to ensure the proper functioning of Justice, military defence of the local communities and of the territories and of the towns, the local and central Administration was not functioning but its costs were steadly growing......I might continue for entire pages, the problems were many, different and of very difficult solution!

In the end we cannot look at the Late Empire and say: well the Empire is a strong and stable society, in constant growth!........It would be totally unrealistic!

[Chelchal]

legio_XX, I agree with you the Curtis did a good job and I didn't mean to include him in my criticism. I really meant to point out what a beautiful book Gore Vidal wrote. What makes it great literature also marks its flaws; it's very much a product of the mid-20th century. Julian narrates as if is on a psychoanalyst's couch (although he did seem to be an introspective man). Vidal was also shaken about John F. Kennedy's recent death, a man about whom he had mixed feelings, although he was close to Kennedy's wife. Vidal's Julian is no JFK but it is easy to see Jacqueline Onassis in his characterization of Eusebia.

I'd consider historically themed novels about sub-Roman/Arthurian Britain to be a subset of late Roman novels. The Last of Britain by Meriol Trevor takes places after Arthur is dead, but before the resumption of the Saxon conquests of the late 6th century. Like Vidal, Trevor is writing as an individual of her time. She was a practicing Catholic who had worked as an aid worker in post-war Europe and was deeply alarmed by what she saw as the advance of Stalinism. She saw a continent that had been physically and morally shattered, tens of million slaughtered, the old values extinguished, the old states humbled and dominated by two peripheral powers with opposite yet equally materialistic visions.

As SBH says, Eagle in the Snow is beautifully written but rather anachronistic. I haven't read Sidebottom; he seems entertaining and vivid from the fragments I've seen.

Diocle, I agree in parts with what you say and disagree with other portions; I'll stand by my position that the later empire is nonetheless sold short in fiction.

[legio_XX]

legio_XX, I agree with you the Curtis did a good job and I didn't mean to include him in my criticism. I really meant to point out what a beautiful book Gore Vidal wrote. What makes it great literature also marks its flaws; it's very much a product of the mid-20th century. Julian narrates as if is on a psychoanalyst's couch (although he did seem to be an introspective man). Vidal was also shaken about John F. Kennedy's recent death, a man about whom he had mixed feelings, although he was close to Kennedy's wife. Vidal's Julian is no JFK but it is easy to see Jacqueline Onassis in his characterization of Eusebia.

I'd consider historically themed novels about sub-Roman/Arthurian Britain to be a subset of late Roman novels. The Last of Britain by Meriol Trevor takes places after Arthur is dead, but before the resumption of the Saxon conquests of the late 6th century. Like Vidal, Trevor is writing as an individual of her time. She was a practicing Catholic who had worked as an aid worker in post-war Europe and was deeply alarmed by what she saw as the advance of Stalinism. She saw a continent that had been physically and morally shattered, tens of million slaughtered, the old values extinguished, the old states humbled and dominated by two peripheral powers with opposite yet equally materialistic visions.

As SBH says, Eagle in the Snow is beautifully written but rather anachronistic. I haven't read Sidebottom; he seems entertaining and vivid from the fragments I've seen.

Diocle, I agree in parts with what you say and disagree with other portions; I'll stand by my position that the later empire is nonetheless sold short in fiction.

ohhhh okay I understand you clearly now. yes I can say agree with that Sidebottom's work is very fun you should give it A try, also Eagle in the Snow while not perfectly historical is still my favorite book hands down.

[Diocle]

Sadly Sidebottom was a disappointment for me! He started well but....IMHO the third book,........ruined the previous reading!

Chelchal, I agree with you, on the way the Romans are described in many works! I only said that the situation of the Late Empire cannot be judged very good!

[Gäiten]

And also Gods and Legions which I bought for 1p (plus P+P) from Amazon. This one I suspect others may have read and wondered on what their reactions were?

How are the Sassanians described?

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

How are the Sassanians described?

I only received the book in the post a few days ago and am reading the early part of his life in Athens. There is an opening scene set in the retreat where he receives the lancea but it is really only a description of battle and the montrous elephants!

[Caesar Germanico]

Vidal's Julian is a must, incredibly well written and researched.