How to fix religion.

[Irishman]

This thread will attempt to explain the two major problems with religion. I am starting this because the numerous other threads on religion are bogged down in other discussions and I wished to ask these questions. This argument will focus primarily on the western religions and does not include non-deistic religions like Buddhism.

The first issue that I have with religion is the common Idea of God. If I told you that God was a supernatural spirit that governed the fates of our souls based on the way we live our lives, who here would question it. This is the idea of god that I like (though may not subscribe to). I like it because the idea of a soul is just that, an idea. It is not provable or deniable and does not infringe on any scientific knowledge. In that case then, God is an idea too. Whether or not god factually exists, he is “true” because he is restricted to the supernatural and is guiding the way we live. The problem many religions run into is that they try to impose the supernatural “true” God into the factual world of the scientific universe.

Why must so many religions make absurd assertions with no evidence whatsoever? What theological purpose does God have in creating the universe? Does he lose any grandeur by not having made us? No. There is no reason to believe that God created the universe, and no reason to believe that God created us (as is clearly defined in Occam’s razor). If god did not create us, but still judged where our souls ended up, would we worship him less? Would we care any less? By limiting God to an idea (whether fact or not) he does not impede scientific thought, and is simply a moral guidance in people’s lives which is commendable. There is no reason to assume that God created anything, accept the dogma of two thousand year old ignorance.

The second issue I have with religion is the near brainwashing nature of it. This problem was sparked last night when I was at my girlfriend’s house and her and her brothers and sisters sat down to pray (these are UBER-CATHOLICS now). One of the kids wasn’t too into the prayer and his sister (a 19 year old) ripped into him. “DO YOU WAN’T TO EAT MICHAEL? YOU HAVE TO PRAY BEFORE YOU EAT, IF YOU DON’T PRAY RIGHT NEXT TIME YOU WILL GET NO FOOD!”

I sat there in disbelief, and this got me to thinking, look at the way that little children are “taught” religion. They are told from the instant they are born that God exists, that the bible is true and that these things are facts. There are the songs, the stories, the church every Sunday, and the forced prayers. It is brainwashing! Then after twelve to fifteen years of the child’s life, the kid is supposed to make an informed decision as to whether he accepts God? Come on. At that age most of these kids have only even seen their religion and are too afraid of their parents to act out against them. I know that there is no remedy for this, but it is a major flaw in religion and why so many people have a “crisis of faith” in their late teens when they become more intelligent.

Just my very long two cents, I would love to discuss it with you guys. :original:

[Denny Crane!]

That was a great post Irishman.

Yes there is something seriously wrong with parents who try to indoctrinate there children rather than educate them.

PEter

[Spiff]

To take Christianity as an example, it would be great im sure if there wasnt so much backstory tagged onto it which no one really needs to know - sure theres lots of morals that can be derived, but everyone has a different take on them and it gets messy when two groups of people try to convince each other that their interpretation is right.. it results in a lot of infidel calling.

Too many religions are over elaborate.. if i made one i'd keep it simple, probably just some obvious commandments, and id say "follow them if you want, im not too bothered really". Youd think human law would be enough, why must people complicate their lives with unverifiable divine law at the same time.


Anyway i think indoctrination is going to be less of a problem soon, i see todays generation as more prone to question their parents.

[over-man]

Youd think human law would be enough, why must people complicate their lives with unverifiable divine law at the same time.

Not to mention many of them would like the two sets of laws to be one.

Imagine some guy trying to brainwash his children with satanic ideas, it wouldn't be long before social services arrive. But equally ignorant beliefs are being encouraged by society.

[John Wayne]

There is no way to fix a religion because there is nothing in the dogma to be fixed. What you are finding disturbing is the interpretation of a religion by individuals, and not the religion itslef.

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

Imagine some guy trying to brainwash his children with satanic ideas, it wouldn't be long before social services arrive. But equally ignorant beliefs are being encouraged by society.

Indeed, that kinda hypocrisy annoys me.
One of the reasons I'm against private religious schools. The kids will most of the time be stuck with a mindset that isn't compatible with normal life.
They would be far better off in a secular public school where they are taught to see things from all sides.

[Tostig]

So ya'll are saying that Einstein was dumb?

Stupid? Of course not. Wrong? Yes.
But he wasn't religious either, he was a cosmologist if anything. Your point is?

The only thing that breaks religion is lack of faith.

And here we have why I dislike it so much. It works so long as people don't think.

They would be far better off in a secular public school

Don't drag me back into the education vs. examination discussion again. Squeaky and I have already hijacked at least one thread with it. Suffice to say that in the United Kingdom I believe that schools should be able to teach religion, however they ought to underline that it is religion rather than an objective scientific fact.

[Atheist Peace]

The second issue I have with religion is the near brainwashing nature of it. This problem was sparked last night when I was at my girlfriend’s house and her and her brothers and sisters sat down to pray (these are UBER-CATHOLICS now). One of the kids wasn’t too into the prayer and his sister (a 19 year old) ripped into him. “DO YOU WAN’T TO EAT MICHAEL? YOU HAVE TO PRAY BEFORE YOU EAT, IF YOU DON’T PRAY RIGHT NEXT TIME YOU WILL GET NO FOOD!”

I sat there in disbelief, and this got me to thinking, look at the way that little children are “taught” religion. They are told from the instant they are born that God exists, that the bible is true and that these things are facts. There are the songs, the stories, the church every Sunday, and the forced prayers. It is brainwashing! Then after twelve to fifteen years of the child’s life, the kid is supposed to make an informed decision as to whether he accepts God? Come on. At that age most of these kids have only even seen their religion and are too afraid of their parents to act out against them. I know that there is no remedy for this, but it is a major flaw in religion and why so many people have a “crisis of faith” in their late teens when they become more intelligent.

Yes, this is a serious, serious problem. Children are incapable of understanding the nature of a religious idea. They are taught to believe in their god as they are taught to believe in Santa Claus. The way religion is seeded in society, accompanied by the way children are brought up with it, they never grasp the fact that there is nothing to support the idea of a god, or other things. Even many atheists or agnostics don't understand that the idea of a god is not more plausible than the idea of Santa or the FSM.

If chlldren weren't indoctrinated with religion throughout childhood, almost no one would believe in religious ideas at all.

[Irishman]

There is no way to fix a religion because there is nothing in the dogma to be fixed.

That was the whole first half of my post. The "creationist god" dogma is the major problem I have with the Christian (and other) dogma, they try and make the bible scientific fact, which is laughable.

[Tostig]

I still disagree with the existance of the supernatural. What possible evidence do you have that it exists? None. The flying spaghetti monster is as reasonable. Honestly, when it's shown to be wrong by science it could just be claimed that the whole "midget" thing was a parable... a parable about how FSM favours the short in stature .

There are plenty of things which are "true" in the sense that they are not provable or deniable. However they are still a pile of piffle. I cannot do anything to stop people believing in things which are obviously false, but I can still disagree with them. You arguement could be applied to any number of things: - UFOs are "spiritual" visiters, probing our "spirituality". The Loch Ness Monster is a "spiritualy" repulsive water serpent. Of course astrology only tells you about your "spiritual" side, based on the movement of "spiritual" bodies.

Can I prove any of these examples wrong? No, but I still think that you'd be foolish to believe in them.

Secondly, in my personal opinion, any belief that isn't grounded in reality is detrimental to society. As soon as people start caring about events in an alternative, and in my opinion non existant, world rather then this one then they are bound to do things detrimental to society - be it a crusade, a jihad or running around Stone Henge without any clothes on.

In conclusion I have one question - if God exists outside the physical universe - outside time, outside Quarks and electrons and vector bosons - how do you have an idea of him?
Ho = Someone made him up.
H1 = Someone was told about him by God, despite God not being able to interact with material objects.
Reply - God interacted with the soul.
Counterpoint - How did the soul, which also exists outside the physical universe, interact with the physical universe?
Reply - By the will of God!

Damn but I hate phenomenalism.

[Zenith Darksea]

On your first point, I'm afraid we can't do much about that. If God made us, then no matter how much we want to change it, we can't just score that part out of the Bible, the Patristics, the Oecumenical Councils, the two thousand years of Sacred Orthodox Tradition (unless you're a Protestant - they quite like doing that ). If you try to make every word of the Old Testament into literal scientific truth then of course it's going to seem pretty odd. However, that particular part of the Old Testament is and always has been allegorical. The literal reading is actually much younger, and can largely be traced to... well, I won't go there again.

As for your second point about brain-washing, I do tend to agree with you on that. At any rate, the methods that you described there are a very bad way to make a child genuinely interested in religion, because it just gives them a mercenary attitude to it. No, religion has to be approached from a position of free choice, as I myself did. That's why I rather like Orthodox Christianity, I must say.

[IamthePope]

As for your second point about brain-washing, I do tend to agree with you on that. At any rate, the methods that you described there are a very bad way to make a child genuinely interested in religion, because it just gives them a mercenary attitude to it. No, religion has to be approached from a position of free choice, as I myself did. That's why I rather like Orthodox Christianity, I must say.

What Irishman might have veiwed as "brainwashing" was probably a simple attempt to remind the child to pray. It wasn't as if the Child said "God is dead" and the other family members said that he would not be allowed to eat until he had changed his veiws. This was not an act of imposing religiouis veiws on a child but instead reminding him to pray before their meal as they always do.

Kids need to be taught that God is fact as they cannot possibly understand the metaphysical proofs and logical arguments behind those beliefs. Only when they come of age should they be allowed to reconsider their religious upbringing and come to their ultimate conclusion. This is why the Catholic Church has the sacrament of Confirmation. To confirm that an adult rejects Satan and embraces the teachings of Catholicism when they are capable of thinking through their beliefs.

I think we could all learn alot from Irishman's "Uber Catholics".

Why fix religion? Just make your own.

Martin Luther couldn't have said it better. Look what came of that.

If chlldren weren't indoctrinated with religion throughout childhood, almost no one would believe in religious ideas at all.

It's a wonder this whole religious thing has caught on the way it has.

[Sam]

What Irishman might have veiwed as "brainwashing" was probably a simple attempt to remind the child to pray. It wasn't as if the Child said "God is dead" and the other family members said that he would not be allowed to eat until he had changed his veiws. This was not an act of imposing religiouis veiws on a child but instead reminding him to pray before their meal as they always do.

So telling the kid that if he doesn't pray he will get no food is not forced indoctrination? How the hell do you figure that?

Kids need to be taught that God is fact as they cannot possibly understand the metaphysical proofs and logical arguments behind those beliefs.

Uh-huh, and what are they?

Only when they come of age should they be allowed to reconsider their religious upbringing and come to their ultimate conclusion. This is why the Catholic Church has the sacrament of Confirmation. To confirm that an adult rejects Satan and embraces the teachings of Catholicism when they are capable of thinking through their beliefs.

And before they come of age and make their own decision, indoctrinate the hell out of them (no pun intended) while they are most vulnerable to it.

[Hub'ite]

I know that there is no remedy for this, but it is a major flaw in religion and why so many people have a “crisis of faith” in their late teens when they become more intelligent.

Or they enter their rebellious teenage years. Where they'll do anything to make mom and dad mad. I wasn't brainwashed into religion. I didn't even go to church until I was about 13. If I didn't want to go to church or pray I wasn't forced to. I don't know many Christians that were forced to pray. I tend to stay away from religious thread because I don't feel like I need to defend my faith from anyone.
Oh and theres nothing to fix in religion, nothings broke.

[Sam]

There are a few problems in some religious texts which I think should be addressed.
The execution of homosexuals, execution of other religious followers, subjugation of women, no contraception, and all the other barbaric stuff which extremists can use to justify their own agendas should be sorted out IMO. Disarm them outright.

Also, I think the major religions shouldn't be so stubborn and resistant to change. I'll quote Darth Wong here (this is a few years old):

Unfortunately, the Crusade mentality is not gone, and the best example is the issue of premarital sex. During the Crusades and Inquisitions, the Church decided that adherence to its belief system was so important that if necessary, human lives should be sacrificed to serve that goal. Is this mentality still alive? To answer that question, I suggest you examine the AIDS epidemic in Africa.

There are an estimated 17 million people dying of AIDS right now in Africa, and the Roman Catholic church continues to use its vast missionary network to spread the word that condoms are the work of Satan!

Right there you can see that there are parts that need fixing.

Edit:

I know that there is no remedy for this, but it is a major flaw in religion and why so many people have a “crisis of faith” in their late teens when they become more intelligent.

If they become more intelligent .

[Lord Rahl]

So ya'll are saying that Einstein was dumb?

I don't see how you can "fix" religion. The only thing that breaks religion is lack of faith.

[Darth Wong]

So ya'll are saying that Einstein was dumb?

Even Einstein can be wrong; he was certainly wrong about quantum mechanics. But in point of fact, Einstein said that the stories of the Bible could not be true. The entity that he called "God" was a deist sort of God, and bore no resemblance whatsoever to the Judeo-Christian God.

I don't see how you can "fix" religion. The only thing that breaks religion is lack of faith.

A short list of problems with religion:

1) The fact that people think it is perfect "out of the box" (or out of the Bible, as it were), hence it does not require the same sort of continuous process of examination and improvement that we apply to everything else in society.

Seriously, if you could eliminate that single factor, most of the other problems associated with religion would probably dissipate. Imagine Christianity if Christians were allowed to edit and improve the Bible over time. And don't tell me there are no problems with religion as it stands today; one can hardly sit here looking at the world's various religious conflicts and sincerely believe that they are totally unrelated to the religions that the various combatants overtly name as their inspirations.

[Zenith Darksea]

Oh, looks like we're back to Crusades and condoms again. Oh well. Who was it that introduced the concept of Crusades? The Latin Church. Who was it who outlawed condoms? The Latin Church. Who can claim that their doctrine is the original Christian one? Not the Latin Church.

Both the ban on condoms and the Crusades were Western innovations on Christianity. If you dislike the two of them, then you're better off going back to the original Eastern Church, in which there have never been Crusades or a ban on condoms.

Now obviously extremists need to be removed from the equation. But the very word 'extremist' gives a clue as to how well they represent religion as a whole - they don't. They are simply an unrepresentative fringe group that happens to grab the news headlines far more than the vast majority of decent, hard-working religious people do.

[King Henry V]

Oh, looks like we're back to Crusades and condoms again. Oh well. Who was it that introduced the concept of Crusades? The Latin Church. Who was it who outlawed condoms? The Latin Church. Who can claim that their doctrine is the original Christian one? Not the Latin Church.

What's your point? Only Catholics have to follow Catholic doctrine, the other Christian denominations can do whatever they like. Your "the Orthodox Church is the greatest!" posts are getting a bit tiresome.

[Zenith Darksea]

Perhaps they may be tiresome, but they do have a point. The point to this particular one was that two criticisms were levelled at Christianity as a whole, and we were told that as a result Christian doctrine needed to change. I pointed out that these particular problems were actually the result of change, and that a better understanding of the original Christian doctrine would prevent these misunderstandings.

The point of these posts of mine in general is to try to iron out such misunderstandings. Without greater comprehension of Christianity as a whole (and let's face it, how many people here understand anything about the Orthodox Church?), they will inevitably occur over and over again.