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  1. #1
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    http://news.yahoo.com/man-dies-being...045648670.html

    The gist: Walmart security tried to detain a shoplifter in the parking lot that was stealing clothes and body wash. After the ensuing struggle, the man died. According to Wal-Mart Stores spokeswoman Dianna Gee, the security didn't call paramedics.
    The security team was suspended pending investigation.

    What is that now? Walmart security got off with a suspension while a man died?
    They should have been arrested for their "work", not allowed to walk around free. Sure, the man that died was stealing, but killing him? That's too extreme. I believe Walmart security got off the hook that cheaply because it's Walmart instead of an average sized business.

    It is bad and it should be rectified. Those security personel should be arrested, as they would if they were say, security that killed a pickpocket in the parking lot of a cinema.


    EDIT: An aspect I would like to discuss is that I believe that if this guy was the son of a rich family or the brother of a mayor with a stealing habbit, the investigation would move like x20 faster than it does now.
    I don't think it's fair that since the guy that died was a "nobody" people don't treat the case with the respect it deserves.


    EDIT:
    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blog...opstories.html

    It happened again!
    Last edited by alhoon; November 26, 2012 at 04:54 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Not political

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Not political
    Its about law.

    Anyway security guards in such places have tough jobs who can quickly cross the line of illegality themselves. Also they have to deal with all walks of life, from arrogant trustfund babys to crackheads, and many cases that are barely still alive and where it wont take much to get them killed. Junkys alcoholics etc already having heart problems or what else of psycho issues that makes them tick off quick.

    I think its entirely justified to find out first what happened and apearently it wasnt enough to get the men arrested. These things just happen in this crazy down throtten world and sometimes its really no individuals fault.
    Last edited by Thorn777; June 05, 2012 at 04:07 AM.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    Its about law.

    Anyway security guards in such places have tough jobs who can quickly cross the line of illegality themselves. Also they have to deal with all walks of life, from arrogant trustfund babys to crackheads, and many cases that are barely still alive and where it wont take much to get them killed. Junkys alcoholics etc already having heart problems or what else of psycho issues that makes them tick off quick.

    I think its entirely justified to find out first what happened and apearently it wasnt enough to get the men arrested. These things just happen in this crazy down throtten world and sometimes its really no individuals fault.

    But a man died. That he may be close to death to begin with doesn't excuse IMO the security to tase him to death!

    Quote Originally Posted by BarnabyJones View Post
    You're the one who said they should be charged with assault.

    I work security for a five star/five diamond hotel in Chicago. Restraining/detaining is not assault. This in patiruclar is called 'Shopkeeper's Rule'.

    Can you explain that "Shopkeeper's rule" a bit more please? I'm interested to hear more about it from someone that works in the security.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    To charge someone you need a reason to charge them not just random suspicion JUST because someone died. There can be an investigation without charges being laid I might add.
    Didn't know that an investigation could be made without charges. However, the security guards should not be allowed to leave the city since they may well be charged for something.

    Also, the main problem I see, is that Walmart may find ways to stall/delay the investigation for quite some time.

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Alhoon, how, specifically, did they kill him? Asphyxiation? TBI?

    Please let the rest of us in on what you and chilon have discovered through your inside knowledge of the investigation.
    OK, 90% killed him sounds better to you? The chances he just happened to die while they took all the measures required for him to not die are kinda small you know. They probably went well over the fence for the shoplifter to die.
    Yes, I can't be sure. But it's a fair bet.
    By "arrested" I don't mean locked up in a cell without a trial, but they should go to trial IMO.
    Last edited by alhoon; June 05, 2012 at 10:32 AM.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    But a man died. That he may be close to death to begin with doesn't excuse IMO the security to tase him to death!

    .
    I don't recall anything stating that they tased him.

    On that matter do security guards even carry tasers? I've never seen one carry such a thing.

    I'd get straight on to adjust the coroners guidelines then because there is a crapload of obviously retarded verdicts. They might find it odd being educated by you but you obviously know something they don't.
    There's not a lot of info.

    For all we know the security guards tried to restrain him and in the struggle as he punched and kicked his way out he hit his head on the pavement and suffered brain injury.If that was the case was it their fault? No, they were doing their job in apprehending a guy who stole stuff from the store.

    There's so many possibilities.
    Last edited by nameless; June 05, 2012 at 11:47 AM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    According to your source the guy was still alive when the cops got there, and he died later in hospital. What do you think the cops should have charged the security guards with? Without medical evidence from an autopsy there is no way they could show that the guy died as a result of what the security guards did, so if the guards had been arrested any charges would have been dismissed immediately for lack of evidence.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    According to your source the guy was still alive when the cops got there, and he died later in hospital. What do you think the cops should have charged the security guards with?
    Assault.

    Without medical evidence from an autopsy there is no way they could show that the guy died as a result of what the security guards did, so if the guards had been arrested any charges would have been dismissed immediately for lack of evidence.
    Not if the initial arrest wasn't a homicide one. It could later have been upgraded. Of course the OP link does not contain enough information but the circumstances do seem a bit odd and would seem to warrant further criminal investigation.
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    Assault.
    That won't get anywhere. They had the legal right to physically apprehend and detain him. So you would still need medical evidence to show that whatever force they used went beyond what they were legally entitled to employ.
    Not if the initial arrest wasn't a homicide one. It could later have been upgraded.
    The charge would still be thrown out immediately. Why arrest them if they are going to walk within 24 hours? It doesn't exactly get the prosecution off to a good start if a judge decides they are making up on day one.
    Of course the OP link does not contain enough information but the circumstances do seem a bit odd and would seem to warrant further criminal investigation.
    With emphasis on the investigation bit. The police are supposed to have probable cause before they arrest people, and a DA is supposed to have enough evidence to support a good faith belief that the accused is guilty before pressing charges. They are not supposed to just arrest people on the off chance that they might find some evidence later. That's a good way to get sued, fired, and maybe (though sadly it doesn't happen very often) prosecuted themselves.
    Last edited by DimeBagHo; June 05, 2012 at 04:12 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    That won't get anywhere. They had the legal right to physically apprehend and detain him. So you would still need medical evidence to show that whatever force they used went beyond what they were legally entitled to employ.
    We don't have enough information for you to conclude this. Police would not need medical evidence to establish probable cause to arrest and investigate.

    The charge would still be thrown out immediately. Why arrest them if they are going to walk within 24 hours? It doesn't exactly get the prosecution off to a good start if a judge decide
    Again, not necessarily. We don't have enough information for you to assert this.

    The police are supposed to have probable cause before they arrest people, and a DA is supposed to have enough evidence to support a good faith belief that the accused is guilty before pressing charges. T.
    And we don't have access to the information regarding whether they had probable cause or not.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Maybe they had the legal right to dimebagho... I dont know who the security guards worked for but not all of them can apprehend people.
    If the dead guy was in possession of stolen items, as the articles says, then that's not an issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    We don't have enough information...
    Shouldn't you be addressing this comment to the OP?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    How about we wait for a cause of death before saying anything against the security? "Medical help" is rather vague...
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Propably tassed to (half) death.
    Still belive that a proper rubber stick is a lot better and safer tool for security.
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Maybe they had the legal right to dimebagho... I dont know who the security guards worked for but not all of them can apprehend people.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    http://news.yahoo.com/man-dies-being...045648670.html

    The gist: Walmart security tried to detain a shoplifter in the parking lot that was stealing clothes and body wash. After the ensuing struggle, the man died. According to Wal-Mart Stores spokeswoman Dianna Gee, the security didn't call paramedics.
    The security team was suspended pending investigation.

    What is that now? Walmart security got off with a suspension while a man died?
    They should have been arrested for their "work", not allowed to walk around free. Sure, the man that died was stealing, but killing him? That's too extreme. I believe Walmart security got off the hook that cheaply because it's Walmart instead of an average sized business.

    It is bad and it should be rectified. Those security personel should be arrested, as they would if they were say, security that killed a pickpocket in the parking lot of a cinema.
    Or you know, there could be an investigation, kinda how these things usually go....
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda Twin View Post
    Or you know, there could be an investigation, kinda how these things usually go....
    Such tiresome things they are too. Like the Trayvon Martin case even needed one. He was white, therefore clearly guilty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    How about we define the rights that allow a government to say that isn't within my freedom.

  16. #16
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Alhoon, how, specifically, did they kill him? Asphyxiation? TBI?

    Please let the rest of us in on what you and chilon have discovered through your inside knowledge of the investigation.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Alhoon, how, specifically, did they kill him? Asphyxiation? TBI?

    Please let the rest of us in on what you and chilon have discovered through your inside knowledge of the investigation.
    More fallacious comments that miss the point?

    Sheesh some of you don't seem to read very well at all.

    I never claimed "inside knowledge of the investigation". I simply countered DimeBahGo's initial comment that claimed that any charges would be immediately thrown out when HE doesn't have access to any more information.

    My point is that based on what we do know there certainly MIGHT be grounds to charge the security guards with assault. MAYBE NOT. But its possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    Wait, I think I see what the problem is. You're saying that maybe there are some facts, not mentioned anywhere in the source, which the police knew, but for some reason kept secret from the reporter, which might have justified charging the guards with assault. Is that the idea?
    I am saying that you have absolutely no grounds to make your initial comment:

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    if the guards had been arrested any charges would have been dismissed immediately for lack of evidence.
    You don't know enough to conclude this in your initial statement.

    I love how you keep ignoring your first post.
    Last edited by chilon; June 05, 2012 at 12:18 PM.
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  18. #18
    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    I love how one of you makes a ridiculous comment and when that comment is countered the conservative bandwagon jumps all over my comment when I was merely responding to someone make a bold assertion without any supporting evidence.
    Which you spent the entire Zimmerman thread doing...

    Maybe the conservative bandwagon just thinks it's ridiculous how you tend to read about an incident and immediately begin deciding what happened using nothing but baseless speculation.

    But at least you seem to have learned the value of supporting evidence.
    Last edited by s.rwitt; June 05, 2012 at 12:19 PM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    To charge someone you need a reason to charge them not just random suspicion JUST because someone died. There can be an investigation without charges being laid I might add.

    There is a relatively new phenomenon either in being recognised or in occurrance but I'm struggling to remember the name of it, fairly certain its "Hysterical Delirium". Plenty of documented cases where violence hasn't been used just restraint.

    Now I've restrained a shop lifter (along with another person) and I've seen the states they can work themselves up into, it was almost frightening.

    Yep. Not the best explanation but its a start.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Imagine a person in the middle of the street, yelling nonsense and stumbling about, unable to keep his balance, obviously not in his right mind. He is waving a knife at bystanders and at the police who have been called to the scene. The police try to convince the man to put the knife down, but he clearly has no idea they're even talking to him. So the police take action: They draw their guns and move toward him. The man responds violently, hysterically, jabbing the knife at police. With six officers working together, they're finally able to restrain him and get him on the ground, but he's still thrashing around with what seems like superhuman strength. They start hitting him with their night sticks, and they keep hitting him until he calms down. But then they realize he's not just calm. He's dead.
    In this theoretical incident, if the medical examiner can rule out the police beating as the cause of death and can find no clear indication of a fatal, biological occurrence, he or she may determine that the official cause is excited delirium. If ever there were a controversial diagnosis, "excited delirium" is it. It's not recognized by the American Medical Association as a medical condition, and you won't find it in the American Psychiatric Association's handbook of mental disorders, but it's the official cause in hundreds of "in-custody deaths" every year. While the majority of these deaths happen in police custody, there are a few each year that occur in residential psychiatric treatment programs, as well.
    The condition has shown up in medical literature as far back as the 1960s -- some people who overdosed on antipsychotic drugs became violent and paranoid and then suddenly died after being restrained. "Excited delirium" first started appearing on death certificates in the 1980s, often attributed to the effects of long-term cocaine use. Believers in the syndrome typically attribute it to the extended use and or misuse of psychiatric or illicit drugs, and some researchers believe there may be a genetic defect in the brain that causes certain drugs to trigger this type of reaction. The controversy surrounding "excited delirium" is related to two primary issues: First, there are no signs of excited delirium that show up on an autopsy -- it's basically the crib death of the police-custody world; and second, the vast majority of people who die from excited delirium do so after they're beaten by police.
    Most police officers will tell you that the type of hectic, crazy situation described above does occur, and that it's very difficult to manage. It can take eight officers to restrain a person in this condition. Most psychiatrists explain that the theoretical knife-wielding lunatic is probably in an altered mental state and is exhibiting "acute behavioral disturbance." This can be brought on by a wide array of factors, including illicit drug use (specifically cocaine and methamphetamine), a brain tumor, heat stroke, or an bad reaction to legal psychiatric drugs, especially stimulants and antipsychotics.
    Dr. Mary Paquette, in the journal Perspectives in Psychiatric Care, describes the condition known as "excited delirium" as an extreme state of behavioral disturbance characterized by "agitation, excitability, paranoia, aggression, great strength, and numbness to pain." (Think Tony Montana by the end of "Scarface.") Regardless of what causes the episode -- drug abuse, psychiatric drug interactions or something like head trauma, the person is most likely suffering from symptoms like increased body temperature and heart rate and a disoriented mental state -- he or she may have no real awareness of reality and may even be hallucinating. Medical professionals theorize that when someone in this state ends up surrounded and then rushed by police officers, things get markedly worse. The person may become terrified, increasingly violent, furious and confrontational.
    These types of acute behavioral disturbances are well-documented in the psychiatric literature. Where things get uncertain is when this condition leads to sudden death, because increased body temperature and a rapid heart rate are not necessarily fatal. In the case we've described, if the medical examiner was able to rule out beating as the cause of death, then what happened?
    No one really knows. Excited delirium is not a phenomenon that scientists can study in a controlled environment. There are those who say the man died from excited delirium, and there are those who say there is no such thing. The latter group believes the man died from bad police tactics.
    Proponents of excited delirium explain that the person's altered mental state and the corresponding biological symptoms are the cause of death. Depending on which expert you ask, the person essentially dies of an adrenaline overdose, heart failure and/or a rapid increase in body temperature that leads to complete organ failure, usually resulting from acute, long-term drug abuse. Those who say excited delirium is real are divided on the role of the police officers in the death: Either the police actions have nothing to do with the death -- the person would have died whether or not the police had intervened; or it is the subject's resistance to restraint, not the police's restraint methods themselves, that cause a fatal reaction.
    Skeptics claim the reality is actually the reverse. It is the police actions that are the cause of death, and the person's mental state is either caused or exacerbated by the use of improper restraint methods and excessive force. At its most extreme, the skeptical position says "excited delirium" is a nonexistent condition that police have invented to cover up instances of excessive force that turn deadly.
    Which brings us to another, related problem with the excited delirium diagnosis: It's often associated with the use of stun guns. And in recent years, Taser International, the maker of most police-issued stun guns, has used the defense of "excited delirium" in numerous lawsuits. People are suing the company for deaths they say are directly caused by the use of stun guns in the police restraint process. The fact that the company's consistent defense is "excited delirium" doesn't help build legitimacy for the diagnosis, considering how much money is at stake in those lawsuits.
    Proof of legitimacy aside, many experts in the psychiatric field place "death by excited delirium" under the umbrella of "restraint-related deaths," and that understanding of the syndrome would seem to imply that police actions do play some role in the fatal outcome. Dr. Michael G. Conner, in "Excited Delirium, Restraint Asphyxia, Positional Asphyxia and 'In-Custody Death' Syndromes," notes that "exhaustion, exertion and restraint combined are associated with a high rate of sudden death." And there are emergency room doctors who have treated people with acute behavioral disturbance who say that sedatives can calm them down, and that they're still alive when the episode is over.
    But even if the police restraining process is the fatal addition to the equation, there are those who ask what might happen if police do not forcefully restrain a man who is disoriented, aggressive and waving a knife around in the middle of the street. In the end, whether police actions are justified or not is always open for debate. But in the face of terrible press and lawsuits, police departments around the country are instituting training procedures to educate officers on the signs of acute behavioral disturbance and methods of handling it without attempting restraint. Such methods include avoiding direct confrontation, using the person's name and speaking in a calm tone of voice, and setting up "containment" barriers to restrict the person's movement instead of restraining the person by force. The idea seems to be that if the restraint process can be eliminated or at least altered, deaths from "excited delirium" involving police action will start to decline.
    Last edited by Denny Crane!; June 05, 2012 at 08:01 AM. Reason: Adding in a thing.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Walmart security KILLS shoplifter!

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    To charge someone you need a reason to charge them not just random suspicion JUST because someone died. There can be an investigation without charges being laid I might add.

    There is a relatively new phenomenon either in being recognised or in occurrance but I'm struggling to remember the name of it, fairly certain its "Hysterical Delirium". Plenty of documented cases where violence hasn't been used just restraint.

    Now I've restrained a shop lifter (along with another person) and I've seen the states they can work themselves up into, it was almost frightening.

    Yep. Not the best explanation but its a start.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Imagine a person in the middle of the street, yelling nonsense and stumbling about, unable to keep his balance, obviously not in his right mind. He is waving a knife at bystanders and at the police who have been called to the scene. The police try to convince the man to put the knife down, but he clearly has no idea they're even talking to him. So the police take action: They draw their guns and move toward him. The man responds violently, hysterically, jabbing the knife at police. With six officers working together, they're finally able to restrain him and get him on the ground, but he's still thrashing around with what seems like superhuman strength. They start hitting him with their night sticks, and they keep hitting him until he calms down. But then they realize he's not just calm. He's dead.
    In this theoretical incident, if the medical examiner can rule out the police beating as the cause of death and can find no clear indication of a fatal, biological occurrence, he or she may determine that the official cause is excited delirium. If ever there were a controversial diagnosis, "excited delirium" is it. It's not recognized by the American Medical Association as a medical condition, and you won't find it in the American Psychiatric Association's handbook of mental disorders, but it's the official cause in hundreds of "in-custody deaths" every year. While the majority of these deaths happen in police custody, there are a few each year that occur in residential psychiatric treatment programs, as well.
    The condition has shown up in medical literature as far back as the 1960s -- some people who overdosed on antipsychotic drugs became violent and paranoid and then suddenly died after being restrained. "Excited delirium" first started appearing on death certificates in the 1980s, often attributed to the effects of long-term cocaine use. Believers in the syndrome typically attribute it to the extended use and or misuse of psychiatric or illicit drugs, and some researchers believe there may be a genetic defect in the brain that causes certain drugs to trigger this type of reaction. The controversy surrounding "excited delirium" is related to two primary issues: First, there are no signs of excited delirium that show up on an autopsy -- it's basically the crib death of the police-custody world; and second, the vast majority of people who die from excited delirium do so after they're beaten by police.
    Most police officers will tell you that the type of hectic, crazy situation described above does occur, and that it's very difficult to manage. It can take eight officers to restrain a person in this condition. Most psychiatrists explain that the theoretical knife-wielding lunatic is probably in an altered mental state and is exhibiting "acute behavioral disturbance." This can be brought on by a wide array of factors, including illicit drug use (specifically cocaine and methamphetamine), a brain tumor, heat stroke, or an bad reaction to legal psychiatric drugs, especially stimulants and antipsychotics.
    Dr. Mary Paquette, in the journal Perspectives in Psychiatric Care, describes the condition known as "excited delirium" as an extreme state of behavioral disturbance characterized by "agitation, excitability, paranoia, aggression, great strength, and numbness to pain." (Think Tony Montana by the end of "Scarface.") Regardless of what causes the episode -- drug abuse, psychiatric drug interactions or something like head trauma, the person is most likely suffering from symptoms like increased body temperature and heart rate and a disoriented mental state -- he or she may have no real awareness of reality and may even be hallucinating. Medical professionals theorize that when someone in this state ends up surrounded and then rushed by police officers, things get markedly worse. The person may become terrified, increasingly violent, furious and confrontational.
    These types of acute behavioral disturbances are well-documented in the psychiatric literature. Where things get uncertain is when this condition leads to sudden death, because increased body temperature and a rapid heart rate are not necessarily fatal. In the case we've described, if the medical examiner was able to rule out beating as the cause of death, then what happened?
    No one really knows. Excited delirium is not a phenomenon that scientists can study in a controlled environment. There are those who say the man died from excited delirium, and there are those who say there is no such thing. The latter group believes the man died from bad police tactics.
    Proponents of excited delirium explain that the person's altered mental state and the corresponding biological symptoms are the cause of death. Depending on which expert you ask, the person essentially dies of an adrenaline overdose, heart failure and/or a rapid increase in body temperature that leads to complete organ failure, usually resulting from acute, long-term drug abuse. Those who say excited delirium is real are divided on the role of the police officers in the death: Either the police actions have nothing to do with the death -- the person would have died whether or not the police had intervened; or it is the subject's resistance to restraint, not the police's restraint methods themselves, that cause a fatal reaction.
    Skeptics claim the reality is actually the reverse. It is the police actions that are the cause of death, and the person's mental state is either caused or exacerbated by the use of improper restraint methods and excessive force. At its most extreme, the skeptical position says "excited delirium" is a nonexistent condition that police have invented to cover up instances of excessive force that turn deadly.
    Which brings us to another, related problem with the excited delirium diagnosis: It's often associated with the use of stun guns. And in recent years, Taser International, the maker of most police-issued stun guns, has used the defense of "excited delirium" in numerous lawsuits. People are suing the company for deaths they say are directly caused by the use of stun guns in the police restraint process. The fact that the company's consistent defense is "excited delirium" doesn't help build legitimacy for the diagnosis, considering how much money is at stake in those lawsuits.
    Proof of legitimacy aside, many experts in the psychiatric field place "death by excited delirium" under the umbrella of "restraint-related deaths," and that understanding of the syndrome would seem to imply that police actions do play some role in the fatal outcome. Dr. Michael G. Conner, in "Excited Delirium, Restraint Asphyxia, Positional Asphyxia and 'In-Custody Death' Syndromes," notes that "exhaustion, exertion and restraint combined are associated with a high rate of sudden death." And there are emergency room doctors who have treated people with acute behavioral disturbance who say that sedatives can calm them down, and that they're still alive when the episode is over.
    But even if the police restraining process is the fatal addition to the equation, there are those who ask what might happen if police do not forcefully restrain a man who is disoriented, aggressive and waving a knife around in the middle of the street. In the end, whether police actions are justified or not is always open for debate. But in the face of terrible press and lawsuits, police departments around the country are instituting training procedures to educate officers on the signs of acute behavioral disturbance and methods of handling it without attempting restraint. Such methods include avoiding direct confrontation, using the person's name and speaking in a calm tone of voice, and setting up "containment" barriers to restrict the person's movement instead of restraining the person by force. The idea seems to be that if the restraint process can be eliminated or at least altered, deaths from "excited delirium" involving police action will start to decline.

    'Excited Delirium' AKA: we just decided to murder a guy and are running a cover-up
    Last edited by justicar5; June 05, 2012 at 12:24 PM.

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