[FotS]Modern vs Traditional units - when and how many?

[arun]

I bought FotS and fired up an Easy Aizu campaign - easy because this will be the first time I am properly playing with gunpowder units. I didn't get much time to play ETW and NTW, unfortunately

I absolutely dominated in my first Shogun 2 Chosokabe Medium campaign, but I am having a lot of problems with FotS:

1. Money - I guess that the Aizu position is particularly bad? Because I am having trouble getting even 1k/turn even though I just conquered my first enemy city. Any tips for the early-mid game? I am getting the first military and economy techs and then going for the trade tech.

2. Distance - Is it just my perception or do armies travel really slowly in FotS? Even with a General, mine are taking several turns to reach my border, let alone the enemy city.

3. Traditional vs Modern Dojos - This is probably the most important question. What is a good mix of modern vs traditional units in early game? And in mid-game? I am really in a bind trying to decide whether to build a traditional dojo (+3 XP units, -ve modernisation) or Cadet School (the future, +ve modernisation).

4. Newly conquered provinces with opposing allegience - What to build in them? Do I need to build a police station there?

5. Rate of conquest - Do I need to conquer as fast as in Shogun 2? With the tight money and long distances, not to mention the unhappiness from allegience, that seems unwise.

All comments will be appreciated

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Ooh! I can answer all of these!

1:Money, at the start, will be very tight. Be careful. Get the economic techs as soon as you are able to.

2: Armies do in fact move slower now. The map is also larger.

3: Modern. Traditional units are good to have in the early game, but if you can only pick one to build, pick modern. If you already have a cadet school though, go ahead and build a traditional dojo, just for the Yari Ki.

4: I suggest building a Police station in one of your provinces and recruiting an Ishin Shishi (Er, uh, Shinsengumi?) and using that to convert allegience before you ever even conquer the place.

5: In FotS, I would suggest taking your game slower. But, it's really up to you. I ignore the victory conditions though, so I tend to turtle for a really long time.

[crzyrndm]

Definetely modern units.
2 parrots, a general, and the rest as line infantry is working rediculously well so far in my first hard campaign. Maybe a few spears until you get kneel fire, but after that, a single volley is just stupidly powerful and cav arent very bullet resistant in the first place.


Extended seasons really encourages growing in bursts. As always it will be very small bursts early on, but I'm getting up to 2-3 provinces per army per campaigning season now (spring->end of autumn) and using the winter to consolidate properly.

[wealthmonger]

I go almost exclusively with spear levies in the beginning. Levy infantry are okay once they get some experience(good to have for castle defense). Line infantry once you get a cadet school. Then parrot guns.

I supplement my income by looting if my Daimyo can handle the honour hit. Lots of trade agreements, eventually your tax income will do the trick but it takes a while. Focus mostly on your economy in the first few years, Economic buildings and civil techs. I expand pretty fast but you should get used it first.

[jonny duck]

The other advantage to building/acquiring several traditional dojo's is that they reduce modernisation, allowing you to research more techs of a given level which can help you unlock better civil techs to increase income and repression/happiness.

Aside from that, dojo's are only useful for recruiting Yari Ki and Bow Kachi. Recruiting Yari Ki from a province with fully upgraded charge bonuses allows you to boost their charge bonus to around 80.

[Cruzz]

The other advantage to building/acquiring several traditional dojo's is that they reduce modernisation, allowing you to research more techs of a given level which can help you unlock better civil techs to increase income and repression/happiness.

Uhh what?

You don't need to be on a specific modernization level to research the techs in it, and as every modernization level increases your research speed, you're not really gaining anything from reducing modernization. Except for one or two less unhappiness from modernization anyway.

Traditional MELEE units are, overall, fantastic in sieges throughout the game. In field battles they're great...until you start having to fight modern units better than line infantry. Bow units are rather worthless in the unmodded game, even levy infantry outperform them in pretty much any situation.

[Funktasticmo]

Uhh what?

You don't need to be on a specific modernization level to research the techs in it, and as every modernization level increases your research speed, you're not really gaining anything from reducing modernization. Except for one or two less unhappiness from modernization anyway.

Traditional MELEE units are, overall, fantastic in sieges throughout the game. In field battles they're great...until you start having to fight modern units better than line infantry. Bow units are rather worthless in the unmodded game, even levy infantry outperform them in pretty much any situation.

I strongly disagree with that statement about bows being worthless I prefer the bows in sieges and most definitely in a land battle. range > guns of course if you have tosa i suppose there is a better advantage but idk... i have always used bows and won :p

[Arima]

Bow units are rather worthless in the unmodded game, even levy infantry outperform them in pretty much any situation.

I'd like to say that you're wrong about Bow Units.
Bow Units have the Advantages of 150 Range and being able to fire from behind obstructions such as hills whereas the Rifle-Equipped Modern Units in FOTS are at a slight disadvantage since they have only 125 Range and need a direct line-of-sight to open fire.

The Bow Ki is the perfect unit for Hit-and-Run attacks because it is the only Cavalry Unit that has 150 Range.

[CTD_or_Bust]

Bow units have their place but they are definitely niche units. You shouldn't put them on the line for general action like S2 vanilla, instead focusing them behind your rifles. This tactic has limited useful utility in the field but in sieges where space is a commodity as important as ammunition, having a unit or two of archers behind line infantry manning the walls can really bring attackers to rout.

Personally:
1. Money - I try to get parrot guns then go right to unlocking foreign agents. They are invaluable to me as a untrained unit is nearly worthless There are definitely some wrong approaches to tech (don't rush Citadels but for the most part, pick what you want to use!

As far as income is concerned, you have to be much more concious about what you're spending on upkeep than in S2. Ships cost.. quite a bit. So do units. Expect to complete the game with no more than 4 stacks, although it is reasonable to only have 2 or 3. Early to mid game, stick to one stack. Money comes in very slow at the start, there's not much you can do about it except be very tight fisted and reinvest into your economy. I prefer to keep my taxes on low until the midgame to give my provinces a head start in growth.

2. Distance - They do. It's part of the FotS design philosophy. It encourages railroad use and end of turn positioning I suppose.

3. Traditional vs Modern Dojos - Traditional is big time garbage imo. Always modernize like crazy. You show me an epic traditional army and I'll show you a gatling gun canceling it out.

4. Newly conquered provinces with opposing allegience - I'd highly recommend police stations during the start of the game to unlock as many metsuk.. ishi shishys.. whatever they're called. The police. Get em fast. Once they hit 6 stars their final tier gives you +1 clan wide happiness. It's straight up OP. Anyway, Police Stations are a favorable choice when coupled with the modern branch of Inns. Or you could skip the police station, leave a ishi ishi wishy in the province for 10 turns to convert it and build traditional inns to generate income quicker. Not really what I recommend but it is a proven approach. I just plop police stations so I never have to look back.

5. Rate of conquest - Take it at your own pace. If I win on h/vh after 1872 I feel like I failed. You don't have to go fast or slow. Realm Divide is way better done in FotS than S2. Instead of the entire game declaring war on you (nice challenge there..) only the opposite alliegence will. Remarkably.. your side will actually help you out! So trigger it as soon or as late as you please. You can still play a normal-ish game post-RD (Just don't .. turn any provinces into vassals. It's bugged, they'll flip to their original allegiance and possibly attack you again)

Surely though, you must have noticed
I would try Jozai, Satsuma or Tosa. Tosa is very fun ^_^

[Funktasticmo]

lol i have seen gats lose hard towards a nice cav rush + ninjas.

[CTD_or_Bust]

Yes, because the AI executes spectacular rushes all the time.. Every time the computer uses ninjas they go off on the wide flank and until units are routing and you've already won :p

[Funktasticmo]

Well I wasn't talking about the AI :p no matter what the ai is just crap...

[CTD_or_Bust]

OP is; unless there's a component about MP that lets you select the difficulty. Which would explain why I lose so often!
FWIW I agree with you, that is an effective and awesome counter to gats in MP.

[wolfbane751]

i find a mix of modern and traditional units to be the best

early game 3 levy spears and 2 yari sam and 4 archer ki then some line infantry or revolver cav

[Funktasticmo]

you can select the AI difficulty yes.

[arun]

Thanks a lot for the replies; there are a lot of good tips in there

BTW, I deliberately chose Aizu because a Hard starting position seemed like a good combination with an Easy campaign difficulty.

There is still one thing that is confusing me - how bad is friendly fire from guns? I allowed my White Tiger Force and Police Force to shoot from behind my spearmen and they took surprisingly few casualties while the enemy took a lot [EDIT: Easy battle difficulty - maybe that's the reason]! Where should I place my ranged infantry so that they can fire on the enemies without "friendly" fire or turning into target dummies for cavalry charges?

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Friendly fire has been changed a bit for FotS. Since they have accurate rifles, they can more easily shoot past their own men and hit the enemy instead. Plus, the men will no longer fire unless they have line of sight on the enemy.

I tend to just put my line infantry in a long line, with revolver cavalry on the edges, and yari katchi closer in the middle. Until, that is, you get kneel fire. Then it doesn't matter where you put your anti-cavalry units, because no enemy will make it past your line infantry.

[arun]

So it is acceptable if some of my melee troops get in their way? Once the line infantry become powerful, it won't be an issue, but at the beginning of the game, they seem quite vulnerable if you don't have enough melee troops to absorb the enemy melee and cavalry rush.

Also, about sieges - Until I get good siege weapons, it seems to me that traditional troops are a must, even on Easy battle difficulty.

[arun]

Since this thread is getting a good response, another question Google couldn't help me with:

Night Battles - What is the advantage of having the night battle skill on your general? Or for your fleets?

[inc0nspicuity]

Night Battles prevent reinforcements. Neither you nor your enemies can use more than one stack during a night battle.
This can be useful if your enemy has more stacks of troops than you. Night Battles will let you attack each army individually.