Spear Militia vs. Sergeant Spearmen armor upgrade

[Maklodes]

In the "Most bizarre design choices (*not* bugs) of M2TW" thread, Silverheart and I got into a bit of a debate about one of the things I picked out as a bizarre design choice. I'm starting a new thread on this subject, because I frankly feel we've strayed a bit from the original topic. Anyway, the state of the arguments up to now are as follows.

17. (Upgraded) Spear militia wear more armor than (upgraded) sergeant spearmen
I think the fact that standard, non-Italian Western European spear militia can upgrade to wearing heavier armor than sergeant spearmen is a bit odd. Their maximum upgrade level (heavy mail) is actually the same as that of armored sergeants. Spear militia are, of course, supposed to be generally a grade below professional sergeant spearmen.

I could understand if spear militia and sergeant spearmen both upgraded to heavy mail, and armored sergeants upgraded to all the way to partial plate or full plate if you had a heavy armourer or master armourer (say), or if spear militia could only upgrade to light mail like sergeant spearmen (or even just leather), while armored sergeants stayed the same, but it seems weird to have spear militias wearing better armor than sergeant spearmen.

Most factions´ Spear Militias can´t be upgraded to heavy mail, though - it´s only like half a dozen or so, and I recall that some can´t even be upgraded more than once.
Also, the Armoured Sergeants are obviosuly professionally trained, shown by them having higher defence (and higher attack compared to some Spear Militias) from the start. So the Armoured Sergeants are still obviously superior to any Spear Militias other than fully upgraded italian ones.
And, on a side-note, it wouldn´t make sense for such commonplace troops to be upgradeable with partial or full plate - they were standard, rank-and-file troops, and heavy chainmail was usually the best armour they would be given (or able to afford themselves).

Most factions´ Spear Militias can´t be upgraded to heavy mail, though - it´s only like half a dozen or so, and I recall that some can´t even be upgraded more than once.

It's true that only Italian and "standard" spear militia can upgrade to heavy mail. (I'd say "NE spear militia," but given that that's not the actual in-game file term, and the unit is used by factions like Spain which aren't Northern European, I'll just say "standard.") Although this actually constitutes a majority of playable factions (ten get either of those; only seven (Byzantium, Egypt, Hungary, Poland, Moors, Russia, Turks) don't). Moreover, though, not all factions get sergeant spearmen or armored sergeants either. All of the factions which get sergeant spearmen get either Italian spear militia or standard spear militia, and thus have spear militias that can wear more armor than sergeant spearmen.

Also, the Armoured Sergeants are obviosuly professionally trained, shown by them having higher defence (and higher attack compared to some Spear Militias) from the start. So the Armoured Sergeants are still obviously superior to any Spear Militias other than fully upgraded italian ones.

True, but what about sergeant spearmen? Why can't they wear as good armor as spear militia, at least?

And, on a side-note, it wouldn´t make sense for such commonplace troops to be upgradeable with partial or full plate - they were standard, rank-and-file troops, and heavy chainmail was usually the best armour they would be given (or able to afford themselves).

I could imagine some late armored sergeants could wear munitions-grade partial plate, but if not, fine. I wrote about several ways of resolving the fact that spear militia can wear heavier armor than sergeant spearmen. If heavy mail should remain the best armor that armored sergeants can wear, and sergeant spearmen have to upgrade to something less than that so that they don't become indistinguishable from armored sergeants in fortresses with armourers, then you could keep sergeant spearmen and armored sergeants as they are, and just have standard spear militia upgrade to light mail.

It's true that only Italian and "standard" spear militia can upgrade to heavy mail. (I'd say "NE spear militia," but given that that's not the actual in-game file term, and the unit is used by factions like Spain which aren't Northern European, I'll just say "standard.") Although this actually constitutes a majority of playable factions (ten get either of those; only seven (Byzantium, Egypt, Hungary, Poland, Moors, Russia, Turks) don't). Moreover, though, not all factions get sergeant spearmen or armored sergeants either. All of the factions which get sergeant spearmen get either Italian spear militia or standard spear militia, and thus have spear militias that can wear more armor than sergeant spearmen.

I don´t recall at all there being that many factions that get the heavy mail upgrade for their Spear Militia - I must be picking all the "wrong" ones for my campaigns...
Anyway, the Sergeant Spearmen are early medieval light troops, and are probably supposed to be replaced by the heavier Armoured Sergeants once they become available. And even the lighter Sergeants are still better than most factions Spear Militia as far as I know.

True, but what about sergeant spearmen? Why can't they wear as good armor as spear militia, at least?

They do ge up to light mail, the same as Armoured Sergeants have by defeault. I suppose CA figured that if you wanted heavier Sergeant Spearmen, you would just go straight to using Armoured Sergeants (since they are technically the same, only the start out as upgraded Sergeants).
Also, since the troops represented by the Sergeant Spearmen (standard spearmen troops) were lightly armoured from the start, and eventually became heavier armoured as their value became more apparent, it kind of makes sense to get the lighter Sergeants first that you can upgrade some, and then get Armoured Sergeants (which, as I said, are exactly the same as upgraded Sergeants by default)
So, technically, your Sergeants eventually get the heavy mail and become just as armoured as Spear Militia

I could imagine some late armored sergeants could wear munitions-grade partial plate, but if not, fine. I wrote about several ways of resolving the fact that spear militia can wear heavier armor than sergeant spearmen. If heavy mail should remain the best armor that armored sergeants can wear, and sergeant spearmen have to upgrade to something less than that so that they don't become indistinguishable from armored sergeants in fortresses with armourers, then you could keep sergeant spearmen and armored sergeants as they are, and just have standard spear militia upgrade to light mail.

LATE Armoured Sergeants? That would be after the High medieval age, and would be well into the time when pikemen started dominating the battlefields - the rank-and-file spearmen of the medieval age, even the heavy ones, would only rarely be upgraded with plate armour or anything heavier than chainmail.
I don´t really see the problem you´re trying to present here, though - how is it a bad thing that some Spear Militia can get heavy mail? They still don´t look like Armoured Sergeants on the battlefield, if that´s what you´re complaining about.
Or are you fazed by the fact that Spear Militia aren´t as good as Armoured Sergeants even though they have the same armour?
Or do you consider it historically inaccurate that some common Spear Militia can get such high an armour upgrade?

Okay. I never intended to make this a huge deal -- this is a thread for talking about the weirder aspects of M2TW, so I'm just sort of stringing together the things that occur to me.

That said, I find it difficult to imagine how this works: why would an armourer provide light mail to sergeant spearmen and heavy mail to spear militia? A game is also a story in a way, you know?

Here's a story -- at least a vignette -- which I'm hoping will illustrate what I'm getting at.

Scene: Nuremberg, 1198 AD.

The gates of Nuremberg opened to let in two units, one hundred and fifty-one souls in all: seventy-five sergeant spearmen, seventy-five militia spearmen, and captain Franz Reithoffer. Nuremberg was the final stop in truly Imperial territory before arrival at the Innsbruck front. The men looked ragged and exhausted. Although Reithoffer was about as minor a noble as one could be while still counting oneself gentle born, he nonetheless carried about him a sense that he was demeaned by being tasked with commanding such a petty army. Nuremberg's burghers had heard that the men would arrive two days later, and were caught by surprise. At St. Lorenz Abbey, priests prepared to receive a backlog of confessions from the newly arrived soldiers, and relieve the pious men of their sins. At the ratskeller, the bartenders wiped down their tables and the whores changed their bedding, in case less pious men sought other forms of relief. "We heard that the Milanese were going to besiege Nuremberg. Any sign of them?" Reithoffer said. "Franz Reithoffer, right? First I ever heard of it," Johann Zimmerman replied. "I don't think the snakeheads have gotten this far. Not yet anyway." "Damn. I've been marching double-time to get here based on some rumor probably planted by some Milanese spy." Reithoffer felt a sudden urge to punch Zimmerman. How was it that Reithoffer was leading tiny armies on convoy missions, while Zimmerman had gotten himself onto General Maximillian Mandorf's staff, when all Zimmerman had to say when presented with rumors of a snakehead attack was basically a blithe confession of ignorance? "Well, at least you're ahead of schedule," Zimmerman said. "Your troops are to be refit here, right?" "Yes," Reithoffer said. He felt no urge to say anything more to Zimmerman, so he asked for a dismissal, which he thankfully received without Zimmerman demanding to interrogate him on the trivialities of his journey from Frankfurt. He thought of heading to the ratskeller, but decided that immersing himself in the details of his little army's provisioning and equipment would probably be a better distraction than a maßkrug of lager. He could be relieved of his billet any time -- he might not even lead his troops to the Innsbruck front, if Mandorf thought that his forced march to Nuremberg based on faulty rumors reflected poorly enough on him -- but for now, he still had 150 men to consider. He walked to the famous Nuremberg Armourer. The armourer had presented General Mandorf with a fine suit of plate when it first opened, a perfect suit that could stop a bolt from a Genoese crossbow at point blank range; but its day to day operations tended toward more mundane works: leather jerkins, helmets, and hauberks of mail. Maximillian Mandorf was going to stay in Nuremberg, as he had for decades. He would likely fight no battles, as he hadn't in decades. His fine armor would stay with him, as he managed the affairs of the city. As for Reithoffer and his men, they would soon be fighting the snakeheads in alpine passes. For this, the armourer would provide, at best, good mail and kettle hats. Reithoffer himself already had better, but he was nonetheless eager to see his men better armored -- or rather, armored at all, since right now they wore nothing but clothes no more protective than any civilian's. His armor would not save him if he was left alone as his men all fell to Milanese bolts. "I am Captain Franz Reithoffer. I am here to make an inquiry about the provisioning of my men," he said to the journeyman armorsmith who received him at the armourer. The journeyman had scurried off to find someone appropriate to speak to him. He had brought back Master Dietrich. "Second Staufen spearmen company and the Fourth Frankfurt irregular spearmen company? We mostly have the order ready. Would you like to know details, or take a look at a sampling of the equipment, or...?" Dietrich trailed off, in case the captain had something else in mind. "Both. Would you show me a sampling and tell me some of the details?" Reithoffer said. "Of course!" Dietrich said, as he beckoned the captain to follow him, his gait erect with pride. They arrived at a room filled with armor. "Our orders," Dietrich said, "are for one-hundred and fifty eisenhüte -- seventy-five each for the Staufen sergeants and the Frankfurt irregulars. In addition, we are equipping both with mail hauberks -- different grades for each." "I see," Reithoffer said. "Go on." "For the sergeants of Staufen, we are providing these light haubergeons," Dietrich said, gesturing at a mail shirt. "They are should provide excellent protection for the torso in a wide variety of circumstances at a reasonable cost. For the Frankfurt militia, we are providing these more extensive hauberks, which extend protection to the legs and forearms, providing full body protection." "Wait," Reithoffer said. "Are you sure you got that right? Don't you mean you're providing the lighter mail for the militia, and the heavier mail for the sergeants?" "No, Herr Reithoffer. We are providing the light mail for the sergeant spearmen, and the heavy mail for the spear militia." "I don't understand." "That is our standard procurement procedure, captain." "Why in the name of Saint Boniface would you equip our finest spearmen with inferior protection while giving our militias your best?" Reithoffer burst out. "Well, the very best spearmen -- the armored sergeants -- are equipped with our best mail, just like the militia." Master Dietrich said. "Yes, but why not... uh.. why not call the sergeant spearmen from Staufen armored sergeants, give them the heavy mail, and give the militia the light mail? Would you be able to switch that?" Reithoffer said. "Captain, captain. As you know, wearing heavy armor is not a simple matter of tossing it on. It can be heavy and restrictive -- perhaps anyone can walk about in it without training, but running around in the chaos of battle, feinting and dodging while wearing so much iron, this requires specialized training." "Look, I can assure you that however much training the sergeant spearmen have in wearing heavy armor, the spear militia have as little or less!" "Perhaps, captain," the master armorsmith said, "but our orders were clear. We are equipping the militia with the heavy mail, and the sergeant spearmen with th light mail." As Reithoffer left the armourer, he found himself wishing that he had gone to the ratskeller instead.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I think I understand your standpoint; that it doesn´t make sense for regular Sergeants to not get an armour upgrade that should be available to them.
But, if I wasn´t clear enough on it, that´s the point where you are supposed to start recruiting Armoured Sergeants. Consider it like this: the Armoured Sergeants are exactly the same as regular Sergeants, just with more armour.
I understand the problem you´re presenting, and from a strictly realistic point of view it doesn´t make sense - but I think the game is purposely designed so that you are supposed to recruit Armoured Sergeants if you want heavier Sergeants.
It wouldn´t exactly make sense either, to have regular Sergeants with exactly as much armour as Armoured Sergeants - they would look and behave exactly alike in the battles! The Armoured Sergeants would be rendered completely unnecessary.

So as far as I can see, the bizarre design choice you´re presenting here is that Armoured Sergeants exist at all, and that regular Sergeants should just get the same armour level instead. Correct?

[Maklodes]

I think I understand your standpoint; that it doesn´t make sense for regular Sergeants to not get an armour upgrade that should be available to them.

My standpoint was that the relationship between the standard spear militia armor upgrade levels and the sergeant spearmen armor upgrade levels didn't make sense. It's not that either one is nonsensical on its own -- just that they don't both make sense at the same time.

But, if I wasn´t clear enough on it, that´s the point where you are supposed to start recruiting Armoured Sergeants. Consider it like this: the Armoured Sergeants are exactly the same as regular Sergeants, just with more armour.

I think that they also have a bit more mass (AS have 1.2, SS have 1), but fair enough.

I understand the problem you´re presenting, and from a strictly realistic point of view it doesn´t make sense - but I think the game is purposely designed so that you are supposed to recruit Armoured Sergeants if you want heavier Sergeants.

I don't really care that much about strict realism. It's more a matter of internal logic, consistency, and common sense than realism for me.

It wouldn´t exactly make sense either, to have regular Sergeants with exactly as much armour as Armoured Sergeants - they would look and behave exactly alike in the battles! The Armoured Sergeants would be rendered completely unnecessary.

So as far as I can see, the bizarre design choice you´re presenting here is that Armoured Sergeants exist at all, and that regular Sergeants should just get the same armour level instead. Correct?

I never proposed that solution. I proposed two possible solutions, but that wasn't one of them: getting rid of armored sergeants completely is entirely your idea. It would work as far as resolving the inconsistency goes, though.

My proposed solutions, as I have written before, included:

1) Reduce the upgrade level of standard spear militia to light mail, or even leather, while leaving sergeant spearmen and armored sergeants unchanged.

2) Allow sergeant spearmen to upgrade to heavy mail, and allow armored sergeants to upgrade to partial plate, while leaving spear militia unchanged.

[Avatar]

I have to side with Silverheart on this one. Spear Militia are there to represent the common and regular infantry pulled together in cities, throughout the middle ages. Sergeant Spearmen are the bottom level (well, except peasants) infantry from smaller castles that get replaced as soon as a regular castle is developed. Basically the militia are important in the game a lot longer than the Sergeant Spearmen,

Regardless of the armour types involved, militia are still weaker than sergeants because of their morale level. For a perfect example of why armour isnt the most important thing, I refer you to Bronn vs Ser Vardis Egan.

[Aeratus]

I agree with Maklodes in that there's no reason why some units arbitrarily have 3 levels of upgrade, while others have fewer levels.

On a larger level, the armor system in the original game has a lot of inconsistencies. For example, the difference between the "E Chivalric Knight" (Hungary) and the other Chivlric Knight is that the E version uses a pavisse shield while the normal version uses a kite shield. However, the pavisse shield actually has 1 less stat than the smaller kite shield. This design makes no sense. (While it is true that a smaller shield may be better for melee fighting, the problem here is that the smaller shield is better in shielding against arrows).

I also don't like the relative armor values in vanilla. In Vanilla, mailed knight has 5 armor, whereas gothic knight has 10 armor. In SS 6.4, mailed knight has 4 armor, while gothic knight has 25 armor. Here, the SS values make a lot more sense because armor improved drastically from the mailed knights of 1066 to the gothic knights of 1530.

[PrestigeX]

In some of the different m2tw campaigns, or mods etc... I noticed that there are advantages here or there to differentiate between the 3 "dummy spearmen". spear militia, sergeant spearmen, & armored sergeants.

I personally opt for the idea that spear militias should stop at light mail or leather - matching them to town militia. I also feel like town militia & spear militia need way more difference (some games I played included this), either with drastic recruit / upkeep differences, or slight skill set changes -- ie. give town militia much better defense skill, less shield,, give spear militia more cav-bonus , better shield value. So there's a reason to have both troops.

Armored sergeants should not exist -- the regular sergeants should just go to heavy armor. In some games, the skills and prices have been greatly widened -- sgt-spearmen with lower costs, free-upkeep... armor-sergeant costing more by 200 florin, no free-upkeep, less recruitment pool ... === so sergeant spearmen still have value in that they may have experience, are your default castle-garrisons etc.

I find it ESPECIALLY important for my games, to personally alter the units / unit-skins to help create more difference between what Vanilla had as the same "unit" but with different names. (ie. sergeants getting wicked looking armors, the militias with more rudimentary skins). Limiting the armor-upgrade of lower grade troops is esp important for me. I typically like to let all units have 1 upgrade, no matter what their starting is like (so unit like Pike Militia, are stuck in leather,,, but the Broken Lances can wear their Gothic Amror)

Personally, I dislike redundant units --- esp some factions like Scotland with 4 types of pikemen , England with 4 types of billmen, etc.

[Doge Domenico]

In some of the different m2tw campaigns, or mods etc... I noticed that there are advantages here or there to differentiate between the 3 "dummy spearmen". spear militia, sergeant spearmen, & armored sergeants.

I personally opt for the idea that spear militias should stop at light mail or leather - matching them to town militia. I also feel like town militia & spear militia need way more difference (some games I played included this), either with drastic recruit / upkeep differences, or slight skill set changes -- ie. give town militia much better defense skill, less shield,, give spear militia more cav-bonus , better shield value. So there's a reason to have both troops.

The town militia have smaller shields and shorter spears. They are light infantry, not spearmen. There is a reason to have both, especially early game. They do walls better than spearmen.
As for the armored sergeants vs sergeant spearmen, it's a matter of convenience. In the early period of a game I have SS. Now let's say I have this army with SS's in them. I build a blacksmith, but go no further. Then I get a fortress. With that fortress, I get AS's. Now if an enemy army is coming to my gates, I can train armored sergeants who by default have more armor than I can give my SS's at the time. They could be my life savers.

[tudor93]

The town militia have smaller shields and shorter spears. They are light infantry, not spearmen. There is a reason to have both, especially early game. They do walls better than spearmen.

why would town militia (who have less defense and attack than spear militia) be better than spear militia on walls ?

[Doge Domenico]

why would town militia (who have less defense and attack than spear militia) be better than spear militia on walls ?

Their weapons are shorter. In my experience they out perform the spearmen on the walls.

[PapaRosario]

To me it looks like Spear Militia and Town Militia have the exact same stats - 5 attack, 0 armor, 1 defense, 6 shield.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type Spear Militia
dictionary Spear_Militia ; Spear Militia
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Light
banner faction main_spear
banner holy crusade
soldier Spear_Militia, 60, 0, 1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 5, square, schiltrom
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 0.6
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr spear, spear_bonus_8
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 0, 1, 6, flesh
;stat_armour_ex 0, 4, 5, 7, 1, 6, 6, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 3, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 20
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 310, 125, 75, 60, 310, 4, 70
armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 2, 3
armour_ug_models Spear_Militia, Spear_Militia_ug1, Spear_Militia_ug2, Spear_Militia_ug3
ownership england, scotland, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, slave, normans
era 0 scotland, spain, portugal
era 1 scotland, spain, portugal
;unit_info 5, 0, 7

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

type Town Militia
dictionary Town_Militia ; Town Militia
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light
banner faction main_spear
banner holy crusade
soldier Town_Militia, 60, 0, 0.8
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 5, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 0.6
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr light_spear, spear_bonus_4
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 0, 1, 6, flesh
;stat_armour_ex 0, 4, 5, 0, 1, 6, 6, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 3, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 290, 125, 75, 60, 290, 4, 70
armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 2
armour_ug_models Town_Militia, Town_Militia_ug1, Town_Militia_ug2
ownership england, scotland, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, slave, normans
;unit_info 5, 0, 7

The difference is that town militia have a "light spear", while spear militia have a "spear".

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

; stat_pri_attr
; primary weapon attributes any or all of
; ap = armour piercing. Only counts half of target's armour
; bp = body piercing. Missile can pass through men and hit those behind
; spear = Used for long spears. Gives bonuses fighting cavalry, and penalties against infantry
; long_pike = Use very long pikes. Phalanx capable units only
; short_pike = Use shorter than normal spears.
; prec = Missile weapon is only thrown/ fired just before charging into combat
; thrown = The missile type if thrown rather than fired
; launching = attack may throw target men into the air
; area = attack affects an area, not just one man
; spear & light_spear = The unit when braced has various protecting mechanisms versus cavalry charges from the front
; spear_bonus_x = attack bonus against cavalry. x = 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or 12

As you can see, the spear gives a penalty versus infantry. So the spear militia perform more poorly than their stats would indicate against infantry, who they would be fighting on walls.

So the bottom line is that town militia are better against infantry and spear militia are better against cavalry.

[tudor93]

Ohh I see, thanks Rosario for clearing that up for me

[Aeratus]

Not all factions get the standard town militia tho. The EE Town militia has a smaller unit size and less unit stats, and the ME Town Militia has a smaller unit size. For these factions, there's no point in using the town militia over the spear militia.

[PapaRosario]

I think the EE Town Militia is the only one not worth using because of their very low defense stats. The ME Town Militia has 20% less unit size, but they also cost 20% less.

[Maklodes]

I believe that EE spear militia is statistically identical to "standard" town militia, including in having the light_spear attribute instead of the spear attribute. EE town militia is just a plain worse (and, to be fair, cheaper) version.