"People are poor because they're lazy/stupid"

[Fight!]

If you've ever gotten into a debate concerning income inequality, you've heard something along the lines of "People are poor because they are lazy/stupid."

I'm getting tired of hearing that, because, quite frankly, it ignores economic reality.

The fact of the matter is that even if every individual was perfect in every way, there would still be rich, and there would still be poor. If you're going to make an argument for conservatism, please don't use this one. It's stupid and makes you look like an arrogant prick.

[removeduser_052420]

I agree. It certainly applies for some people though.

[Psychonaut]

Some people are poor because they are dumb/lazy.

A lot of other people are poor for reasons beyond their control. They should receive help.

[Tankbuster]

Some people are poor because they are dumb/lazy.

A lot of other people are poor for reasons beyond their control. They should receive help.

This is an interesting post. Particularly the distinction between "being dumb and lazy" on one hand, and "reasons beyond their control" on the other.

Going one level deeper, how can one even see being dumb as anything other than beyond your control? In the case of intelligence, being dumb is simply a matter of your genetic make-up and the way you were stimulated by your parents. In the case of knowledge, it's still largely a function of your education and and upbringing.
Being lazy is really in a similar position. Surely the two factors there are how innately lazy you are first, and how much your parents and education (figuratively) beat that laziness out of you second.

And that's before we get into an economic system which doesn't appreciate merit but merely plays by the rules of cause-and-effect.

[Denny Crane!]

This is an interesting post. Particularly the distinction between "being dumb and lazy" on one hand, and "reasons beyond their control" on the other.

Going one level deeper, how can one even see being dumb as anything other than beyond your control? In the case of intelligence, being dumb is simply a matter of your genetic make-up and the way you were stimulated by your parents. In the case of knowledge, it's still largely a function of your education and and upbringing.
Being lazy is really in a similar position. Surely the two factors there are how innately lazy you are first, and how much your parents and education (figuratively) beat that laziness out of you second.

And that's before we get into an economic system which doesn't appreciate merit but merely plays by the rules of cause-and-effect.

See now that will rattle a few cages.

[Phier]

This is an interesting post. Particularly the distinction between "being dumb and lazy" on one hand, and "reasons beyond their control" on the other.

Going one level deeper, how can one even see being dumb as anything other than beyond your control? In the case of intelligence, being dumb is simply a matter of your genetic make-up and the way you were stimulated by your parents. In the case of knowledge, it's still largely a function of your education and and upbringing.
Being lazy is really in a similar position. Surely the two factors there are how innately lazy you are first, and how much your parents and education (figuratively) beat that laziness out of you second.

So poor people are genetically inferior?

[Tankbuster]

So poor people are genetically inferior?

Fairly sure there's no way you could view that as an accurate summary of what I've said.

Poor people aren't 'genetically inferior' (whatever that's supposed to mean) but people with crappy parents and upbringings in crappy neighbourhoods, don't have the same chance of being succesful as others -especially if they have average genetics on top of that.
I hope that's not anything new; intergenerational mobility isn't exactly a new concept. Genetics probably plays a smaller role here than environmental factors, but both are beyond your control.

[Phier]

Fairly sure there's no way you could view that as an accurate summary of what I've said.

Poor people aren't 'genetically inferior' (whatever that's supposed to mean) but people with crappy parents and upbringings in crappy neighbourhoods, don't have the same chance of being succesful as others -especially if they have average genetics on top of that.
I hope that's not anything new; intergenerational mobility isn't exactly a new concept. Genetics probably plays a smaller role here than environmental factors, but both are beyond your control.

Lets not play coy here. I was posting more as a but I left that out to see where this goes. If it is a combination of nature and nurture, which is what you said, then genetically they are predisposed to being poor.

You are backtracking here a bit saying if they have crappy parents and average genetics. If you don't know what genetic inferiority means than what the hell does average genetics mean .

Who is to say if they have crappy parents and crappy neighborhoods, the reason they are crappy is because of the genetic traits of the people in said neighborhoods?

Intergenerational mobility doesn't do anything to preclude this. Your father may be predisposed to alcoholism and your mother may be stupid genetically but that doesn't mean the child will get either of those traits. Of course THAT child will get the hell out of that crappy neighborhood when it can, leaving its less genetically "gifted" relatives behind. While interengernational mobility might be an obvious thing for immigrant groups whos children assimilate and learn to succeed, its less of an issue for "established" poor, who wallow in poverty for generations, sucking off the government tit.

[Gpower]

If you've ever gotten into a debate concerning income inequality, you've heard something along the lines of "People are poor because they are lazy/stupid."

I'm getting tired of hearing that, because, quite frankly, it ignores economic reality.

The fact of the matter is that even if every individual was perfect in every way, there would still be rich, and there would still be poor. If you're going to make an argument for conservatism, please don't use this one. It's stupid and makes you look like an arrogant prick.

Indeed. I think people believe in this because there are a significant number of poor people who are stupid/lazy. But, what I believe is "People are lazy/stupid because they are poor". Without proper education, people generally don't magically become smart, and when one is never given a real opportunity for entire decades, the most enthusiastic people will give up.

[Col. Tartleton]

I don't think anyone should be blamed for their poverty, no one tries to wind up poor, but it's a very relative thing. "Poor" in the US is a lousy car, a tv with basic cable, a desktop computer, and a cell phone that doesn't double as a computer...

There is real poverty and their is relative property. We should all do our part to help the very poor, and we need to get the government out of taking care of everyone. The government has a specific role in society, and that isn't part of it.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

People who die from poverty in a country with a social welfare system can only do so of their own fault.

I never hear people complaining about having a low income job, and I don't think "poor" should include people on low incomes who are poorer than the median or whatever. A large percentage of TWC's population is young adults who live in small apartments that don't have dishwashers, have either an old or no car, and have low income entry-level jobs or haven't even found a proper career yet. People living how Tarleton outlines above are certainly not poor and I've never heard anybody complaining about that situation.

It's called socio-economic status for a reason, it takes more than being economically poor to be poor. The situation I outlined above is very bad when members of a family unit are drunkards, drug addicts, adulterous etc, or when someone in that situation has more children than they can afford. Children are more expensive than adults.

[magpie]

I suppose it depends how you define being poor.
Many people prefer to spend their lives enriching themselves in the pursuit of knowledge and culture or other past times.
Chasing the dollar or pound ect is not a top priority for them.
Now of course if you are starving and without shelter you could be deemed as being destitute poor.
Regarding welfare that has its own rules. In Ireland if you are self employed and your business fails you get No support from welfare. So you are on the destitution route.

[Aanker]

I personally think a lot of it has to do with culture as well. Being born into a poor family, maybe with criminality, drug/alcohol abuse and crushed dreams and ambitions, I think, leaves one disillusioned and in a sense accustomed to the situation. The question is therefore how the cycle could be broken: should money be directly pumped into the poor households or should focus lie on creating more opportunities?

Interestingly, the line "there will always be poor" is also a somewhat conservative argument.

[Mr. Scott]

Being poor has less to do with being lazy/stupid and has more to do with value systems. It's why the poor Chinese immigrant child ends up going to UCLA (ex. my step-mother), and why a home-grown poor American stays poor. In some ways it does have a bit to do with being lazy, but that is as much the parents fault as it is the child's.

The only solution to the malaise-based type poverty that America has is to simply change the value system. It's the most effective way to bring someone out of poverty. The biggest hurdle to this is, how do you change the value system of an entire population?


At the post above me: Creating more opportunities will do nothing if the child doesn't utilize them. I know at my high school, there are tons and tons and tons of avenues into which a person can direct a passion or effort. Many people simply don't though. It's simply a distortion of priorities.

[Basil II the B.S]

OP has clearly never been to Italy or Southern Europe in general.

And I think we all went to school, some got better grades, others did not because they were stupid or lazy. It's a good approximation of how the world works.
I may be willing to help the stupid, but lazyness pisses me off.

[King Gambrinus]

OP has clearly never been to Italy or Southern Europe in general.

And I think we all went to school, some got better grades, others did not because they were stupid or lazy. It's a good approximation of how the world works.
I may be willing to help the stupid, but lazyness pisses me off.

No wonder you believe in helping yourself instead of others then...


Nice generalisation about Southern Europe too. Have you been there?

[Basil II the B.S]

Nice generalisation about Southern Europe too. Have you been there?

I am from there.

[Voodo chile]

Because the government takes too much of their money away! lol.
Especially when you have people who are in parliament who want a pack of cigs to go up to $100

If you smoke, drink, have a car and you arnt a friggen 6 digit earner then that would take away a significant ammount.

There are lazy people but then there are also people who just can barely cope with 'necessities'. I used to think min wage would be quite jolly. "Just buy a scooter/moped and you'le be away laughing". Then i discovered you have to register your vehicle and get it licenced - 215 for a year.
Then every year after that you have to update your licencing 172 per year. Thats a moped, under 50cc.
For a person on min wage that would be fairly significant.

Min wage i dont think can cope with all this stuff.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

For some people it's true. They could have gotten an education and pursued a career that would pay them sufficiently, but instead decided to be lazy and now struggles with a burger joint job.

However that's not always the case. People are poor because they have no money. They have no money because life is expensive. An education is expensive, medical bills are expensive, loan payments are expensive, rent is expensive, food is expensive, gas is expensive, a very long list of expensive things makes it so there is very little if any net profit coming in that paycheck.

[Big War Bird]

I think if you are going to talk about poverty you have to begin by acknowledging that there is always going to be a certain fragment of society that is going to do the bare minimum to sustain themselves.

But here is a nice story of someone who has every excuse not to excel, but chose otherwise.