Armour on the charge

[smilinga]

Does the armour affect a unit even more than just the resistance vs arrows and the melee defence of your units? In previous TW games many of the best units on the charge were units with high armor (it wasn't a real stat in ETW but some of the best charging units such as the Cuirassiers or many of the guards had high armor.) I also heard from some experienced players that armour also helped withstood charges... So, to make a long story short, does it affect charge in any way?

[CptAustus]

Armor counters charge bonus and is just as effective in melee as defence, but it doesnt make a charge deadlier.

[DannyTh3Man]

Armor counters charge bonus and is just as effective in melee as defence, but it doesnt make a charge deadlier.

Yes, exactly this
Lessens Arrows, Negates charge, Buffs Defense

[smilinga]

Shouldn't it be a factor? What maked a cavalry charge so deadly was not only the speed of the horses and the weapon they were using but also the heavyness of both the horse and the armour of the rider.

[Alexandru]

Shouldn't it be a factor? What maked a cavalry charge so deadly was not only the speed of the horses and the weapon they were using but also the heavyness of both the horse and the armour of the rider.

Yes, speed and mass make the force of a charge. The heavyness of both horse and rider counts, but not the armour itself, given that the samurai armour was lightweighted to better acomodate the other skills of the samurai warrior, beside swordmanship, such as riding a horse and archery (including archery from the back of the horse).

I believe that the only type of armour that counted somehow to the momentum of the charge was the "tin can" of the european medieval warrior.

[CptAustus]

Yes, speed and mass make the force of a charge. The heavyness of both horse and rider counts, but not the armour itself, given that the samurai armour was lightweighted to better acomodate the other skills of the samurai warrior, beside swordmanship, such as riding a horse and archery (including archery from the back of the horse).

I believe that the only type of armour that counted somehow to the momentum of the charge was the "tin can" of the european medieval warrior.

Plus armor wasnt really used for horses in Japan. But I do agree it is somewhat odd no dachis are deadlier on the charge than katana cav. I guess thats the way CA managed to make that unit.

[Seyal]

Yes, speed and mass make the force of a charge. The heavyness of both horse and rider counts, but not the armour itself, given that the samurai armour was lightweighted to better acomodate the other skills of the samurai warrior, beside swordmanship, such as riding a horse and archery (including archery from the back of the horse).

I believe that the only type of armour that counted somehow to the momentum of the charge was the "tin can" of the european medieval warrior.

Plus, wouldn't that be better factored into the charge rating?

So heavy cav would get higher charge than light cav? Something like that (not that samurai used heavy armor as you said - though I guess if you put a naginata warrior on a heavy-plate armored horse?)

[Outlawstar15a2]

Shouldn't it be a factor? What maked a cavalry charge so deadly was not only the speed of the horses and the weapon they were using but also the heavyness of both the horse and the armour of the rider.

No, because you don't need alot of armor to have a high mass. Mass is determined by how much you weigh and it factors into your charge because it plus your velocity determines your forward momentum. You don't need alot of armor to have a high mass. I'm a pretty beefy guy even without armor and I can hit something with more force then the average person. Now add a steed to the mix, see what I'm getting at? Yes, armor has mass but it's not a requirement to be heavy.

What's the inherit mass of the horse? Of the rider? Of their weapon? Of their armor? You can have a small amount of armor, but if the rider is using a heavy weapon and has is heavy himself with a large and heavy horse then yes you will have a high overall mass.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

No, because you don't need alot of armor to have a high mass. Mass is determined by how much you weigh and it factors into your charge because it plus your velocity determines your forward momentum. You don't need alot of armor to have a high mass. I'm a pretty beefy guy even without armor and I can hit something with more force then the average person. Now add a steed to the mix, see what I'm getting at? Yes, armor has mass but it's not a requirement to be heavy.

What's the inherit mass of the horse? Of the rider? Of their weapon? Of their armor? You can have a small amount of armor, but if the rider is using a heavy weapon and has is heavy himself with a large and heavy horse then yes you will have a high overall mass.

So, you say armor should not be a factor, and then you go on to explain why it should be?

I don't think anyone was debating the fact that people can be heavy without armor (If they were, point them out to me so I can mock them with myself) but if YOU are debating the fact that a person in full plate armor is not heavier than a person of equal weight, minus the armor, than YOU, my friend, are the one who shall recieve my mocks.

Armor should be a factor in determining the charge bonus of a unit, is what Im trying to say.

[daniu]

What's the inherit mass of the horse? Of the rider? Of their weapon? Of their armor?

Armor should be a factor in determining the charge bonus of a unit, is what Im trying to say.

IIRC, the mass of a unit is determined in a db table as a total, so everything about them is included.
There's really little need to create a complicated formula of adding all those values together if you know them in advance for a given unit anyway... unless you want the charge bonus to change for a unit with upgraded armor, but as I understand it is that the armor upgrade is of higher quality, not bigger (as in, of higher mass).

That's sort of beside the point anyway, no? Armor is a defensive value, so the question is (as was raised in the OP) whether it helps withstand a charge better...
I think the combat formula is pretty much something like

hits = (attack + (speed * mass * charge)) - (defense + armor)

so that would mean armor does withstand a charge better of course, as it does a normal attack (I don't know if the defending unit's mass is somehow included in the calculation as well).
The real question is: should it? Because as was pointed out, a charge relies partly on the mass of the attacker, and how exactly does a full body armor help protect you against being run over by a horse?

[Alkaline Earth]

Mass is determined by how much you weigh

**Hits red button**

WRONG

[jonny duck]

Wouldn't heavier armour detract from the effectiveness of charging, as a man weighed down with heavier armour wouldn't be able to run as quickly? What made heavily armoured cavalry more effective was that to carry all that extra weight, knights/soldiers had to ride bigger, heavier horses.

[Evanescent]

Now, nodachi may have higher charge rating than katana cav, but being infantrymen, they don't have as much mass as the cav units. This I believe was in battle_entities table...

What this means is that while katana cav will have less melee bonus upon charging, therefore cutting down fewer men, potentially, than nodachi, but will have better penetration power with their large mass. Though, I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing...

As far as I know, armor stat has no bearing on the charge effectiveness.

[vallu751]

I wonder if the higher penetration allows the cav to reach more enemies while the charge bonus is active, thereby increasing the kill count?

[jonny duck]

I wonder if the higher penetration allows the cav to reach more enemies while the charge bonus is active, thereby increasing the kill count?

Or it gets them stuck further into the combat, making it harder to withdraw them.

[jonny duck]

The other thing to note is that a higher armour stat does not necessarily equate to heavier armour, merely a better quality armour.

[smilinga]

The other thing to note is that a higher armour stat does not necessarily equate to heavier armour, merely a better quality armour.

I dont think so... What would make an armor of better quality? How it was forged? What material? How it was constructed? They may be a factor when attacking under a rain of arrows... but why does a higher armour rating helps to withstand a cavalry charge better? Its because they are less pushed back by horses, because of their armour are more heavy. Thicker armor means, by itself, better armor when it comes to protection.

As for those who dont believe it should be... look the previous games! Cuirassiers of the Napoleonic era used only a breast and backplate, not only for protection but also for the weight it adds in a charge.

The reason why I think it should be a factor in a charge in shogun 2 is because I believe Katana Cavalry, as mighty agaisnt the bow and the sword as it can be, is WAY too weak in a charge, especially as a cavalry unit. It only has 15 (if my memory is correct) which is the same as the katana samurai, who are on foot which, in my opinion, doesn't make any sense at all...

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

I don't think mass is calculated into the attack formula, it just increases the units ability to penetrate formations and push back other units, which has the welcome side effect of hitting more units during the charge effect and in that way the charge becomes more powerful. Otherwise No-dachi would be devestating chargers if it was just about numerical values and penetration wasn't a major factor, compare with RTW where cataphracts have the most powerful charge even though their actual charge bonus is comperatively low.

Armor most likely still has zero to do with unit mass as in earlier games, for cavalry the main factor for charge power has always been the mass of the horse in all TW games.

[hochmeister devin]

Cuirasses they used in napoleonic times also had the side effect of being bullet resistant (im hesitant to say bullet proff since I dont know if theyd stop all bullets).

[Alexandru]

Cuirasses they used in napoleonic times also had the side effect of being bullet resistant (im hesitant to say bullet proff since I dont know if theyd stop all bullets).

There really was that side effect? I remember in some cavalry description it stated that they use the cuirass rather for show than protection, the cuirass being outdated and obsolete. I also remember they were dropping like flies when after a mass volley.