[Discussion]Curator participation in citizen application polls

[Aikanár]

Esteemed fellow citizens,

in this recent application the ruling Curator has cast his vote after two votes were cast. I can't go into detail concerning what the Curator has voted for, but the mere fact that he has cast his vote runs contrary to my understanding of the constitution:

• Twelve elected Citizens, who may discuss and vote on all matters within the Consilium de Civitates Forum
• Hexagon members, who may discuss all matters within the Consilium de Civitates Forum, but have no vote.
• The Curator, who may take part in all Consilium de Civitates discussions, and has the deciding vote only in the case of a tie. The Curator has veto powers over any Consilium de Civitates decision.

So my reading of this is, that the Curator is only a legitimate voting member of the CdeC in the case of a tie.
But I'm aware that this section could be interpreted in another way. Surely Legio has interpreted it another way and since I trust in Legio, I assume he has done so with good conscience.

I think we need to discuss this, because, as far as I can see, this should get claryfied in the best interest of the CVRIA and all future applicants.

[Legio]

Indeed. Poll will be restarted.

I apologize for the inconvenience.

[Okmin]

I always thought that didn't apply to citizenship applications (except if he votes yes or no) since you can't break a tie with one vote.

[Aikanár]

Technically you could in the rare event of one councillor voting yes, one voting no and 7 abstaining votes.
In this event his vote could break a tie since it would make up the missing % to reach 60% of the non-abstaining votes.

Or in the event of only 8 councillors partaking in a vote, with the vote of the curator, even an abstaining vote, a quorum would be reached.

That said, I know that these are very hypothetical events. And I don't think that Legio wanted to do anything harmful.
So please don't get me wrong, but I think this should get clarifyed if anything to prevent the appearance of such a thread in the future

[Legio]

I agree; the Curator's role in the application process may have to be clarified. This is one way of interpreting the votes clause; however, the Constitution does not expressly forbid the Curator from voting as a Councilor (he is, after all, a member of the CdeC) and one may choose to interpret it as a blank check. I think it's a good thing that Aikanar noticed this infraction and brought it up for discussion and the role of the Curator with regards to ongoing citizenship applications may have to be clarified.

[Aikanár]

I always thought that didn't apply to citizenship applications (except if he votes yes or no) since you can't break a tie with one vote.

Thing is, if the Curator is a legitimate voting member of the CdeC in every vote, the phrasing and separation from the other 12 members with voting powers does not make any sense at all.

The Curator's vote being a tie braker could be interpreted in a way that in the case of whatever tie it is the deciding vote, if so, then the 60% rule in citizenship applications would be overruled by the Curator, just like he can overrule any other curial decision. This is pretty much how I read the constitution, but it is just this, my reading.

[m_1512]

So, what do you propose?

[Legio]

A clarification may be useful.

What are the Curia's thoughts on this?

[Jom]

I agree; the Curator's role in the application process may have to be clarified. This is one way of interpreting the votes clause; however, the Constitution does not expressly forbid the Curator from voting as a Councilor (he is, after all, a member of the CdeC) and one may choose to interpret it as a blank check. I think it's a good thing that Aikanar noticed this infraction and brought it up for discussion and the role of the Curator with regards to ongoing citizenship applications may have to be clarified.

I'm not sure where you're finding ambiguity in the Constitution, as it seems very clear to me: there are 12 elected CdeC members who can vote; there is Hex who can give input; and there is the Curator who can only vote in the event of a tie.

The Constitution indicates that the Curator is apart from the rest of the CdeC and therefore does not have the usual voting rights. I can see only one way of reading the voting clause.

[Boustrophedon]

I'm not sure where you're finding ambiguity in the Constitution, as it seems very clear to me: there are 12 elected CdeC members who can vote; there is Hex who can give input; and there is the Curator who can only vote in the event of a tie.

The Constitution indicates that the Curator is apart from the rest of the CdeC and therefore does not have the usual voting rights. I can see only one way of reading the voting clause.

I agree. The Constitution is quite clear on this matter and Legio was a bit overzealous but nothing that needs an adjustment of the procedures outlined in the Constitution..

[StealthFox]

I'm not sure where you're finding ambiguity in the Constitution, as it seems very clear to me: there are 12 elected CdeC members who can vote; there is Hex who can give input; and there is the Curator who can only vote in the event of a tie.

The Constitution indicates that the Curator is apart from the rest of the CdeC and therefore does not have the usual voting rights. I can see only one way of reading the voting clause.

I agree. The Constitution is quite clear on this matter and Legio was a bit overzealous but nothing that needs an adjustment of the procedures outlined in the Constitution..

^^See the above.

I think it's perfectly clear the way it is now.

[MasterBigAb]

Yes, i agree

And thanks, good you brought it up Aiki

[SonofPeverel]

I'm not sure where you're finding ambiguity in the Constitution, as it seems very clear to me: there are 12 elected CdeC members who can vote; there is Hex who can give input; and there is the Curator who can only vote in the event of a tie.

The Constitution indicates that the Curator is apart from the rest of the CdeC and therefore does not have the usual voting rights. I can see only one way of reading the voting clause.

I agree. The Constitution is quite clear on this matter and Legio was a bit overzealous but nothing that needs an adjustment of the procedures outlined in the Constitution..

^^See the above.

I think it's perfectly clear the way it is now.

This is the way I read it as well.

[Silent Assassin]

I'm not sure where you're finding ambiguity in the Constitution, as it seems very clear to me: there are 12 elected CdeC members who can vote; there is Hex who can give input; and there is the Curator who can only vote in the event of a tie.

The Constitution indicates that the Curator is apart from the rest of the CdeC and therefore does not have the usual voting rights. I can see only one way of reading the voting clause.

I agree. The Constitution is quite clear on this matter and Legio was a bit overzealous but nothing that needs an adjustment of the procedures outlined in the Constitution..

^^See the above.

I think it's perfectly clear the way it is now.

This is the way I read it as well.

Same here, it's crystal clear for me also

[Bolkonsky]

Same here, it's crystal clear for me also

Add my voice to that.

[imb39]

Usually it is best to follow precedent (if known) or rely on the Curator's interpretation.

[Aikanár]

Usually it is best to follow precedent (if known) or rely on the Curator's interpretation.

Precedent is a double-edged sword to follow, whos precedent do we follow? tBP's, Justy's, Empress Meg's, Niko's, Q's, Okmin's, Legio's or somebody else's behavior as CVRATOR precedent or who's?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not really sure how to treat with this or whether or not my reading might be "right" or constitutional, thus the opening of the threat.

[Okmin]

Well, the precedent's been "vote abstain or don't vote". I chose not to vote at all. Q did too, but I think I remember him picking abstain a few times.

[imb39]

If there is serious contention then a possible rewrite is in order. If there are various 'precedents' then the Curator, I'd argue, is at liberty to opt for what most closely matches his interpretation. I'd possbily ask the CDC for advice before going to the Curia. Ultimately the Curator is the final arbiter.

[Magicman2051]

Go with the precedent that has been set.