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Thread: My ideas for the RR/RC Compilation

  1. #1

    Default My ideas for the RR/RC Compilation

    While modifying the TLK EDU and EDB according to RR/RC principles, I noticed some inconsistencies with unit recruitment and upkeep costs. Now I am working on converting the BC EDU and EDB, and the unit costs in that mod are as out of whack as the rest of the stats. I decided to further develop the pricing system I had begun to think about for TLK, and now I can present it to you for ideas and criticism.


    Standardized Unit Pricing System (SUPS)

    UNIT SIZES

    late professionals *
    ----------------
    missile - 54 - 135 on huge
    infantry - 54 - 135 on huge
    spearmen - 70 - 175 on huge
    cavalry - 28 - 70 on huge



    feudals
    ---------
    missile - 40 - 100 on huge
    infantry - 40 - 100 on huge
    spearmen - 48 (originally 44) - 120 on huge
    cavalry - 20 - 50 on huge



    early professionals
    ------------
    missile - 48 - 120 on huge
    infantry - 48 - 120 on huge
    spearmen - 60 - 150 on huge
    cavalry - 24 - 60 on huge



    locals
    ---------
    missile - 48/60 - 120/150 on huge
    infantry - 48/60 - 120/150 on huge
    spearmen - 60/70 - 150/175 on huge
    cavalry - 24/28 - 60/70 on huge



    * These numbers are intended for use in BC, which, unlike SS, does not take place over many centuries and therefore does not need to depict technological advances. In SS it makes sense to have larger battalions for Late Professionals, especially in the Renaissance period, but during the timeframe of BC, I prefer the reduced numbers above (also in order to not give factions with lots of LPs an overly big advantage). Also, due to the more limited temporal scope of BC, things like partial and Gothic plate are not mentioned in the section below.



    RECRUITMENT COSTS

    nobles cost 0 (100 due to carl script) since they provided their own equipment
    religious orders cost 0 (100 due to carl script) since they provided their own equipment

    militia, levies and late professionals - 1 florin per man per turn of training + cost of equipment
    early professionals, locals and mercenaries - no equipment cost, but 6 florins per man to sign up if exceptional or elite quality, 5 florins if superior or average quality, 4 florins if militia or peasant militia quality


    late professional training times
    -------------------
    average - 3 turns
    superior - 4 turns
    elite - 6 turns
    exceptional - 7 turns


    Equipment Purchase Costs:

    leather, gambeson - 1
    leather lamellar - 2
    light mail, light lamellar/scale - 3
    heavy mail, lamellar/scale - 4
    heavy lamellar/scale - 5
    axe, spear, lance - 1
    2h axe - 1.25
    mace - 1.5
    sword - 3
    2h sword - 3.25
    short bow - 0.5
    war bow - 0.75
    longbow - 1
    composite bow - 2
    arrows - 0.25
    buckler, small round, small kite - 1
    large round, medium kite, kite - 2

    +1 superior armour -> +0.25
    +2 superior armour -> +0.5

    +1 superior non-sword weapons -> +0.25
    +1 superior swords -> +0.5

    pony - 2.5
    eastern horse - 3
    archer horse - 4
    combat horse - 5
    horse barding - 2
    horse mail - 4
    horse scale, half cataphract - 4
    horse cataphract - 5
    horse armour - 6



    UPKEEP COSTS

    Feudal units have free_upkeep_unit, since they resided at their estates when not called to arms. Order and Militia units also have free_upkeep_unit.

    Type:
    levy, militia - 2 florins per man
    local, early professional - 2 florins per man
    late professional, feudal - 3 florins per man
    mercenary - 2 florins or 2.5 per man?
    order - 0 florins per man, only eq upkeep costs, arrows, lances and half horse upkeep


    Quality:
    peasant militia, militia - x 0.5
    average, superior - x 0.75
    elite, exceptional - x 1


    pony - 1
    eastern horse - 1.5
    heavy horse - 2.5
    all armoured horses - 3

    lances - x 0.25 - cavalry broke their lances in battle and needed new ones
    arrows - x 0.25 - missile units used up their arrows in battle and needed new ones


    Equipment Maintenance, Repair & Replacement - 0.05 florins per turn per Equipment Class per soldier. This represents the wear and tear on gear, as well as the resources needed to keep all gear serviceable.

    Equipment Classes
    -----------------
    soldier equipment = 0.05 (+)
    soldier armour = 0.05 (+)
    horse equipment = 0.05 (+)
    horse armour = 0.05



    unarmoured infantry equipment maintenance, repair and replacement - 0.05 x unit size
    armoured infantry equipment maintenance, repair and replacement - 0.1 x unit size
    unarmoured soldier unarmoured horse cavalry equipment maintenance, repair and replacement - 0.1 x unit size
    armoured soldier unarmoured horse equipment maintenance, repair and replacement - 0.15 x unit size
    armoured soldier armoured horse cavalry equipment maintenance, repair and replacement - 0.2 x unit size


    Here are same sample calculations of the recruitment and upkeep costs of different types and qualities of units:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    elite early professional infantry armoured - recruitment - 6 x 120 = 720
    elite early professional infantry armoured - upkeep - (2 x 1 pay + 0.1 eq upkeep) x 120 = 252

    elite early professional infantry bow armoured - recruitment - 6 x 120 = 720
    elite early professional infantry bow armoured -upkeep - (2 x 1 pay + 0.1 eq upkeep + 0.25 arrows) x 120 = 282

    average early professional infantry armoured - recruitment - 5 x 120 = 600
    average early professional infantry armoured - upkeep - (2 x 0.75 pay + 0.1 eq upkeep) = 192

    average early professional infantry bow armoured - recruitment - 5 x 120 = 600
    average early professional infantry bow armoured - upkeep - (2 x 0.75 pay + 0.1 eq upkeep + 0.25 arrows) x 120 = 222

    average early professional spearmen armoured - recruitment - 5 x 150 = 750
    average early professional spearmen armoured - upkeep - (2 x 0.75 pay + 0.1 eq upkeep) x 150 = 240

    average early professional spearmen unarmoured - recruitment - 5 x 150 = 750
    average early professional spearmen unarmoured - upkeep - (2 x 0.75 pay + 0.05 eq upkeep) x 150 = 233

    superior early professional infantry bow unarmoured - recruitment - 5 x 120 = 600
    superior early professional infantry bow unarmoured - upkeep - (2 x 0.75 pay + 0.05 eq upkeep + 0.25 arrows) x 120 = 216



    any quality militia spearmen leather spear small round - recruitment - (1 training + 1 leather + 1 spear + 1 small round) x 150 soldiers = 600
    any quality militia spearmen leather spear small round - upkeep - (2 x 0.5 pay + 0.1 eq upkeep) x 150 = 165

    any quality militia infantry unarmoured short bow knife - recruitment - (1 training + 1 short bow + 0.25 arrows) x 120 soldiers = 270
    any quality militia infantry unarmoured short bow knife - upkeep - (2 x 0.5 pay + 0.05 eq upkeep + 0.25 arrows) x 120 = 156

    any quality militia infantry leather short bow knife - recruitment - (1 training + 1 leather + 1 short bows + 0.25 arrows) x 120 soldiers = 390
    any quality militia infantry leather short bow knife - upkeep - (2 x 0.5 pay + 0.1 eq upkeep + 0.25 arrows) x 120 = 162



    exceptional late professional cavalry cataphract lance sword kite - recruitment - (7 training + 4.25 superior 1 heavy mail + 4.25 superior 1 lamellar + 2 gambesons + 1 lance + 3.5 superior sword + 2 kite + 5 combat horse + 5 horse cataphract) x 70 = 2380
    exceptional late professional cavalry cataphract lance sword kite - upkeep - (3 x 1 pay + 0.2 eq upkeep + 0.25 lance + 3 horse upkeep) x 70 = 452

    exceptional late professional cavalry lamellar lance sword kite mailed horse - recruitment - (7 training + 4.25 superior 1 lamellar + 1 lance + 3.5 superior sword + 2 kite + 5 horse + 4 horse mail) x 70 soldiers = 1873
    exceptional late professional cavalry lamellar lance sword kite mailed horse - upkeep - (3 x 1 pay + 0.2 eq upkeep + 0.25 lance + 3 horse upkeep) x 70 = 452

    average late professional cavalry light mail composite bow axe small round pony - recruitment - (3 training + 3 light mail + 2 composite bow + 0.25 arrows + 1 axe + 1 small round + 2.5 pony) x 70 soldiers = 893
    average late professional cavalry light mail composite bow axe small round pony - upkeep - (3 x 0.75 pay + 0.15 eq upkeep + 0.25 arrows + 1 horse upkeep) x 70 = 256

    elite late professional infantry heavy scale mace large round - recruitment - (6 training + 5.25 superior 1 heavy scale + 1.25 superior mace + 2 large round) x 135 soldiers = 1958
    elite late professional infantry heavy scale mace large round - upkeep - (3 x 1 pay + 0.1 eq upkeep) x 135 = 419

    superior late professional spearmen gambeson spear kite - recruitment - (4 training + 1 gambeson + 1 spear + 2 kite) x 175 soldiers = 1400
    superior late professional spearmen gambeson spear kite - upkeep - (3 x 0.75 pay + 0.1 eq upkeep) x 175 = 411



    exceptional feudal cavalry scale lance axe large round barded horse - recruitment - 0 x 50 + 100 carl script = 100
    exceptional feudal cavalry scale lance axe large round barded horse - upkeep - (3 x 1 pay + 0.2 eq upkeep + 0.25 lance + 3 horse upkeep) x 50 = 323

    exceptional feudal cavalry scale lance axe large round heavy horse - recruitment - 0 x 50 + 100 carl script = 100
    exceptional feudal cavalry scale lance axe large round heavy horse - upkeep - (3 x 1 pay + 0.15 eq upkeep + 0.25 lance + 2.5 horse upkeep) x 50 = 295

    exceptional feudal cavalry scale axe large round barded horse - recruitment - 0 x 50 + 100 carl script = 100
    exceptional feudal cavalry scale axe large round barded horse - upkeep - (3 x 1 pay + 0.2 eq upkeep + 3 horse upkeep) x 50 = 310

    elite feudal infantry heavy mail sword small round - recruitment - 0 x 100 + 100 carl script = 100
    elite feudal infantry heavy mail sword small round - upkeep - (3 x 1 pay + 0.1 eq upkeep) x 100 = 310

    superior feudal infantry leather lamellar bow sword buckler - recruitment - 0 x 100 + 100 carl script = 100
    superior feudal infantry leather lamellar bow sword buckler - upkeep - (3 x 1 pay + 0.1 eq upkeep + 0.25 arrows) x 100 = 335



    elite order cavalry heavy mail lance sword kite barded horse - recruitment - 0 x 50 + 100 carl script = 100
    elite order cavalry heavy mail lance sword kite barded horse - upkeep - (0 x 1 pay + 0.15 eq upkeep + 1.5 horse upkeep) x 50 = 82.5

    elite order infantry heavy mail sword kite - recruitment - 0 x 100 + 100 carl script = 100
    elite order infantry heavy mail sword kite - upkeep - (0 x 1 pay + 0.1 eq upkeep) x 100 = 10



    UNIT POOL REPLENISHMENT RATES - this is the part that needs the most input from medieval experts, hence the question marks


    base rate - 8 turns to replenish
    cavalry - 8 (7 for kypchaks, mongols and seljuks)
    infantry - 7 (8 for kypchaks, mongols and seljuks?)

    Type:
    order, feudal +2
    ep +1 ?
    lp +0
    local -1
    militia -2

    average, superior -1?

    Special (spatharioi guard, pelekyphoroi, varangians, dismounted caliph's guard, emir's ghulam warriors) -> +5
    These are high-quality guard units of the ruler who receive +2 to armour quality since they had access to the absolute best armour and weaponry available, but, due to their low numbers and high requirements for enrollment, take 5 turns longer to replenish than a comparable unit.



    Real Feudalism

    Historically, nobles weren't recruited from barracks. They were granted fiefs whose revenues they used to equip and support themselves so they could devote themselves to warfare. So I am thinking about a new line of buildings that allow you to better simulate this arrangement:

    The building line can be called Feudalism (perhaps the graphic could be a castle that gets bigger at each tier).

    Level 1 Feudalism building -> Grant Manors -> 1 florin, 1 turn to build -> -15% trade, tax, mining and farming income -> allows Low Nobility
    Level 2 Feudalism building -> Grant Fiefs -> 1 florin, 1 turn to build -> -40% trade, tax, mining and farming income -> allows Middle Nobility
    Level 3 Feudalism building -> Grant Estates -> 1 florin, 1 turn to build -> -70% trade, tax, mining and farming income -> allows High Nobility

    Of course, the money penalty would be made to only apply to the player.

    Grant Manors requires Communal Farming, Dirt Roads, Market
    Grant Fiefs requires Crop Rotation, Dirt Roads, Fairground
    Grant Estates requires Irrigation, Paved Roads, Great Market


    Instead of having different units, such as Mailed Knights, Feudal Knights, Imperial Knights, Chivalric Knights, Noble Knights, Gothic Knights and so on, we can have only three kinds of knights, whose equipment changes as time goes by.

    High Nobility (HN) has better equipment than Middle Nobility (MN), which has better equipment than Low Nobility (LN).

    When HN is using Coat Of Plates, MN is using Heavy Mail and LN is using Light Mail. As armour becomes more widespread, HN goes on to Partial Plate, MN adopts Coat Of Plates, and LN finally can afford Heavy Mail. When HN upgrades to Full Plate, MN receives Partial Plate, and LN at long last can get its hands on Coat Of Plates. Then HN gets Gothic, MN gets Full and LN gets Partial.

    These equipment changes require only three slots in the EDU - one for each Nobility tier. The armour (and horse) improvements can be shown by having several EDUs each with a different models_db entry for each Nobility tier. By switching EDUs at 100 year intervals - in 1200, in 1300, 1400, 1500, 1600, we can upgrade the armour, horses and, very importantly, weapons of our aristocracy as technology progresses (more axes, maces, war hammers and poleaxes, damn it!). For increased historical accuracy, EDUs can be swapped 10 or 20 years after a new technological advance. For example, the Coat Of Plates event occurs in 1240. In 1250, the player receives a notification to switch EDUs. The highest nobility available at that time now is wearing Coat Of Plates, while the nobility one tier below receives what the highest nobility was previously using.

    The armour upgrades occur in 1240, 1310, 1380, 1450, 1530, and I think there's a Heavy Mail Event sometime too. This would require five EDU switches, if one were to play all the way to 1540 (10 years after the event), which I don't believe is too onerous a requirement.

    Is it possible to have all factions share the three Nobility tiers, and yet have each tier use different equipment in-game depending on the owning faction through manipulation of models_db and texture and meshes? For example, a HN unit has Partial Plate, sword, kite shield and barded horse for the French but Heavy Lamellar, mace, small round shield and Eastern Armoured horse for the Khwarezmians?



    I also propose to reduce the amount of turns a city can remain under siege and introduce a new line of buildings called Nourishment Storage.

    Level 1: Food Reserves -> +2 turns under siege
    Level 2: Victuals Depot -> +4 turns under siege (maybe 5)
    Level 3: Provisions Stockpile +6/8 turns under siege

    Food Reserves requires Market, Communal Farming
    Victuals Depot requires Fairground, Crop Rotation
    Provisions Stockpile requires Great Market, Irrigation

    Perhaps these buildings could also give a bonus to happiness or population growth.
    Last edited by k/t; May 20, 2012 at 02:35 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: My ideas for the RR/RC Compilation

    I've watched your works for TLK and BC for some time. Sounds like you've got a good approach for rebalancing RR. I'm especially interested in the Feudalism concept. I'll keep an eye on this after the end of the upcoming week has passed (damn exams!).

  3. #3
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: My ideas for the RR/RC Compilation

    Yes, good stuff K/t, I had almost the same concept for my mod about recruitment but with some of my own flavor to represent the nobility and recruitment of trained soldiers but all I can say it is a great start!

  4. #4

    Default Re: My ideas for the RR/RC Compilation

    It is interesting work and something that needed to be done. I think it might be a bit too complicated and I wonder if the difference between nobles might be a bit too much. Otherwise as far as I can tell it makes sense.

    Are the buildings for siege length in addition to the current siege times? I would see no point in that. If they were a line of buildings completely separate and are the only buildings to give sieges a time beyond the basic 1 turn then I can see the point.

  5. #5
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: My ideas for the RR/RC Compilation

    wait, how do you increase siege length with a building? what EDB attribute is that? that would be a new one to me and I basically rewrot the whole EDB from scratch for HURB o_O .... also what exactly determines siege length anyway. descr_wall? or campaign_db ?
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  6. #6

    Default Re: My ideas for the RR/RC Compilation

    Hehe, I don't know, but I assumed it would be possible.

    Yeah, I meant reducing the siege length for all cities (or at least the stone-walled ones), who then would require the food reserves in order to boost their resistance to sieges.

    Perhaps the nobles could be split solely into Low and High Nobility.

  7. #7

    Default Re: My ideas for the RR/RC Compilation

    I was going to ask about the siege times as well because I thought they were hardcoded to walls but it would be very cool if it were otherwise. I've asked several times in various forums and never gotten an answer about siege lengths and that usually means its hardcoded.

    High and low would make the most sense I think. The very high nobles are the dukes and counts which in medieval era are incredibly few and BGs are more than enough to show those and their retinues. Some factions could have more of a medium nobility without high other than BG and without the masses of lower knights that some extremely feudal places such as France or Spain had.

  8. #8
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: My ideas for the RR/RC Compilation

    I want to investigate this too, but AFAIK there's no attribute in the EDB that can change this, unless maybe if it's tied to wall level, which means it would be tied to descr_wall, that migth be possible, and interesting too .
    1180, an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity in East Asia, it's technology and wealth is the envy of the world. But soon conflict will engulf the entire region with great consequences and lasting effects for centuries to come, not just for this region, but the entire known world, when one man, one people, unites.....

  9. #9

    Default Re: My ideas for the RR/RC Compilation

    Picking up on something Byzantium Guard St Polycarpe Polycarpe The Forum Member Formerly Known As Polycarpe said he is doing for his mod: how about altering the stat bonus given to high quality units to favour defense?

    In the current iteration of RC, Superior units get +1 Attack and +2 Defense, Elite units get +3 Attack and +3 Defense, Exceptional units get +4 Attack and +4 Defense. What if Elite units got +2 Attack and +4 Defense while Exceptional units got +3 Attack and +5 Defense? This would mean their casualties would be lower, which would be expected from high quality units, and their attack will be increased by experience chevrons anyway, an increase which this stat reassignment better accounts for. Too bad CA decided to be stupid and remove the Defense increase from experience in Kingdoms.

  10. #10

    Default Re: My ideas for the RR/RC Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    Picking up on something Byzantium Guard St Polycarpe Polycarpe The Forum Member Formerly Known As Polycarpe said he is doing for his mod: how about altering the stat bonus given to high quality units to favour defense?

    In the current iteration of RC, Superior units get +1 Attack and +2 Defense, Elite units get +3 Attack and +3 Defense, Exceptional units get +4 Attack and +4 Defense. What if Elite units got +2 Attack and +4 Defense while Exceptional units got +3 Attack and +5 Defense? This would mean their casualties would be lower, which would be expected from high quality units, and their attack will be increased by experience chevrons anyway, an increase which this stat reassignment better accounts for. Too bad CA decided to be stupid and remove the Defense increase from experience in Kingdoms.

    I think that is a good idea and I've already done that for 1390. I settled on +2 defense skill per class and melee attack base at 3 with - or + depending on weapons, not on unit class. The only class bonus is +1 attack to knight or equivalent due to weapons training starting young compared to even some men who became professional soldiers later in life, such a bonus is really only relevant in earlier eras as in later eras superior and elites are less likely to be knight and more often men at arms or sergeants. While defense skill base is whatever melee attack is +1. So peasants using polearms would have a base attack of 4(low quality polearms) and a defense skill of 6 with 0 armor and able to upgrade to leather armor which would give them max stats of 7 attack AP and 8 defense with full XP and leather armor upgrade. Capable of taking on heavier armor units in melee with heavy losses due to their AP and higher numbers but prone to rout with their low morale and decimated by missile weapons where they have only 2.5 armor against. Also it is much more difficult for such a unit to reach max XP so more often it will be 6 melee attack. Also swords give +1 defense skill aside from other factors(swords are the most versatile weapons in general).

    An elite unit who is a knight wielding high quality swords would have a base attack of 3 +2 for high quality weapons +1 knight setting melee attack to 6 with defense skill +1 base set at 7 +4 for elite class and +1 for swords for total of 12 defense skill. Mounted get -2 to armor and +2 to defense skill since horse is much larger target but due to speed, unpredictable movement, and distance gains a defensive bonus. Better horse armors reduce the -2 to armor to 0 while only fully armored cataphract style gets a +1 armor bonus but of course moves very slowly due to all that armor with -.1 per level of horse armor so cataphract would move at .7. There exist very few mounted units with less than leather armor so they can't go below 0 armor. So that elite unit has max stat of 9 melee and as example with early era light mail armor of 4(about the least armor any elite would ever have) 16 defense. Mounted the same unit would have same overall attack and defense but more easily fall to arrows while the AP of the peasants would only barely affect the battle in the early era(more simply higher attack of the polearms would make bigger difference). In later eras when elites are wearing much more armor and also peasants are more likely to have reached max XP the AP of the polearms would make a bigger difference compared to other units.

    Elites have much higher morale and a command bonus while also would attack about 1/3 faster than peasants with polearms(only so much we can do without changing animations but attack delay can be noticeable when going into 200s). Mixing a unit of elite into a unit of peasant might be a potent combination.

    In EDB I also made the leather tanner dependent on the farming level not the walls to roughly approximate how well off the poor of the region are since better farming methods usually mean higher output and standard of living for them to afford at least some leather armor. Leather tanner is its own separate building with 2 levels as well. 2nd level is for the armor upgrade of cavalry armor to go from -2 to 0.

    The reason to separate unit class from weapons quality is due to that poor vs rich knights idea you also are trying to show. An elite unit which is poor would have only average weapon and the 3 melee base attack with +1 knight (though still with other benefits that make getting max XP more likely) for total of 4 melee attack, 7 with full XP which cavalry reach more quickly. I have been contemplating making most late professionals AP even if sword is their main weapon as professionals carried a variety of weapons suited to the task. They would lose the +1 sword bonus and also attack slightly slower if I make that change just because in later eras having AP is such an advantage that professionals without AP weapon became a liability fighting other pros though still useful against lower classes.
    Last edited by Ichon; May 29, 2012 at 08:47 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: My ideas for the RR/RC Compilation

    Quote Originally Posted by RollingWave View Post
    wait, how do you increase siege length with a building? what EDB attribute is that? that would be a new one to me and I basically rewrot the whole EDB from scratch for HURB o_O .... also what exactly determines siege length anyway. descr_wall? or campaign_db ?

    I was wondering this as well, could it possibly be food production from farms? Allowing an army to last longer with more food.

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