[Amendment] Patronisation Incentive Bill, Part II {Pater's Civic Crown}

[Justinian]

I oppose this. There is a lot of satisfaction and prestige associated with having a client; I've been proud to patronize every single one of mine. They propagate your name, what more incentive do we need? Besides, I can only see this leading to a mad rush to patronize anyone and everyone who's remotely worthy, just to get the shiny medal. Diluting the pool of people that make up this Curia definitely won't solve any problems it has.

[MorganH.]

If it is for successful applications only,and not for ''just'' proposing,i would support this.

[StealthFox]

I don't think it's a bad idea to reward active patrons in some way, as without active patrons the Curia would stagnate. However, I think in this case there are more negatives than it's worth. It would be a disservice to all those in the past to not make this retroactive, and implementing that isn't possible without many, many headaches, and even then it would be difficult to ensure the medals are distributed correctly according to how many clients a patron actually has had in the long history of the Curia.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Proposer: Mega Tortas de Bodemloze
CdeC Support:Bolkonsky,
Additional Supporters: Baron Samedi,

Concept supporters added. Given that this petition is being built on the floor, I'll save adding conditional supporters until the base framework and details of the bill are in place.

Now just to clarify, this award would be for "citzens tendered", aka "successful applications tendered".

The process itself would would be handled muck like the current CdeC medals are. The receipent would have to petion the curatorship for the award by including links to the successful application reviews invovled.

This way the onus is on the recepient and does not take up space clogging the curatorship's docket.

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Just stuck my head in the door, for quick acknoweldments and I'll take some time to assemble counter bullets, and start building a coherent framework. Thanks for everyone time and participation, I'm glad to see folks refencing Q's initial presentation.

My oppologies for posting merely the concept, and even though I was running out the door, I wanted to present the notion and have it settle in over the weekend.

Kay...I'll get started reviewing the initial responses and get to work on shoring things up...

[Boustrophedon]

What happens if a patron has gained 3 new clients, gets the bronze medal but then one of the clients screws up big time and is ostrakoned? Does he lose the badge or what?

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

**Looks Up**

Good one....Keep'em coming....

[Bolkonsky]

I would say nothing.

Also, this isn't just a patronization incentive, it's a successful incentive. This will help reduce terrible candidates, or people that are unready, which has been an issue in the last couple of months.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

I would say nothing.

Also, this isn't just a patronization incentive, it's a successful incentive. This will help reduce terrible candidates, or people that are unready, which has been an issue in the last couple of months.

I really should keep it zipped, until I present it in bullet form but.....

Recently we had a few application reviews that got yanked by the patron and thrown into the vault after the patrons read just a sampling of the initial counselors reactions.

If they were embarrsed just by that I can't phamtom their reaction if they ever got the see the CdeC Collectively zero in on them and react to a "Garbage application".

So to the premisis that this would do nothing but piliferate "Garbage applications"....."Hogwash!!!" I say...

Once they taste the cold, heartless, ominess collective sarcasm of the CdeC, I can assure you that they won't be be back for 2nds.....


My oppoligies for jumping gun. Now I'm also gonna have to layout the composition and base definition of Garbage apps as. Cuz it probably ain't what most of you think...

I'll try and keep it zipped until stuff's presented in bullet form...

[Heinz Guderian]

I support.

I think this is proposal has alot of merit. I dont think the pool of Curial members will be diluted since the CdeC will uphold their standards. Anyone who isnt ready will be declined. I think we can trust current citizens not to put forward applications that they themselves think will fail since the CdeC have already decided that the proposing citizen is up to a standard and deserving of respect.

[Legio]

While I haven't quite made up my mind as to whether I support this or not I think we should take Heinz Guderian's post into consideration; he brings reasonable points to light.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Indeed...

I encourage everyone to wait on tendering opinions until a more formalized framework is presented, which addresses the issues put forth to this point.

Working on that...btw........

[Tango12345]

Patiently awaiting what you come up with.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

I don't mind supporting this, but to be honest I would only do so if it was a reward for successful applications, rather than simply putting applications up. I don't see the need for a reward if nothing concrete has come out of it.

Patiently awaiting what you come up with.

Well your concern was an easy fix because yes, it's only counting "citizens" tendered. {succesful aplications}...

And as I have said as to a ton of low quality applications being tendered.... I'm sure the embarrasment/humilation factor that the 1st couple of applications would receive would effectively curb/disuade that practice.

[Tango12345]

I do think it needs to be made very clear in the conditions for the award though, because to my mind simply "bringing citizens forward" gives too much of an impression of potential citizens forward, regardless of what is actually intended.

Thus, might I suggest the reward be for "successful citizenship applications tendered" rather than simply "citizens tendered"?

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Good point....We'll make that happen.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Pater's Civic Crown

The Civic Crown is awarded at the discretion of the Curator in consultation with members of the Consilium de Civitate. The bronze Civic Crown is given if a Citizen has successfully sponsored 3 members through the defined constitutional patronisation process. Silver civic crown for 9 successful patronisations, gold civic crown for 15 patronisations. A citizen is not eligible to receive a civic crown if they have patronised more failed applicants than successful ones.

Proposed medal concept:
Bronze


Silver


Gold



Award parameters:

* The award is tendered for having succesfully patronized X number of citzens. Currently the levels are. Bronze: 3, Silver:9, and Gold: 15.
* To receive the award, the receipient must request it from the curatorship along with prove of the succesfully completed citizenship applications that apply.
* A citizen is not eligible to receive a civic crown if they have patronised more failed applicants than successful ones.


For those of you unfamiliar with this concept, here is the origianl pettition presented by Ominpotent -Q/Mr. Bond.

[VOTE FINISHED: FAILED] [Amendment] Patronisation Incentive Bill ( 12345678)
Mr Bond

Kay... reworked the draft, and bullets. 1st post edited...

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Patronization shouldn't be a competition, nor should it be something that is to rewarded with medals in my opinion. I also fear that it may be the wrong incentive and would make people consider members for citizenship just to get that higher medal.

Look around you and have a good look at where you are....

* On a gaming site, imersed and deep fried with roleplay from one end to the other.

* On a gaming site that has utilized the carrot/stick initiative sucessfully for years prior to my arrival here in 2008.

* All the Great houses here compete, if we had a circus maximus or a gladiator's ring, my parent would have thrown my insolent, agressive butt to the lions, long long ago.

* Might this spark an individual to try to atain the award's highest level...perhaps. Good then, more deserving folks that got acknoweldged and hopefully a few more corpulent badge wearers strolling around the curia, hopefully casting a vote here and there, but also dropping notions and ideas about this and that.

* To the notion that acknoweleging patrons somehow dilutes the institution of citizenship....Sorry but I just don't buy that...

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What are the different approaches to Patronization?????

* Personal attatchment and profound understanding with offspring: Alot of folks don't patronize very much because to them it is a very personal/private enterprize. {Most of the applicant names shoved under my door come from folks just like this}.

* Moved to action at the spur of the moment: My third and fourth sons fall into this category. Something they posted caught my eye, and after looking into it further I felt compelled to act to get them their due.

* Prolonged and intense planning: Matter of fact I've got at least two kids the have been gestating in the womb for over a year now. One of them I told that as soon as the TWC uni class that he's teaching is over...Boom! out he comes ready of not!

Point being the approaches to patronization are varied and mean different things to different people. The notion that someone is going to start cookie cutting applicants just to go for the gold? That approach would be very apparent and end up being deeply embarrassing at the least.

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ybbon66...

The award may be succured only after succesfully sponsoring X number of new born citizens. I think that covers your bullets...

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Question: does this apply retrospectively?

Initial my thoughts were no. But then what makes one citzen any less noble than another? So let's say....Hader shows and throws down....

Whack!!!!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sub Patrocinium Hader: Shazbot | dvk901 | King Louise Assurbanipal | Re Berengario I | HemilcoBarca | Angel | King Kong | Prince_of_Macedon | Pontifex Maximus | Primergy | Nyxos | SonofPeverel | StealthFox

Now gimmie..gimmie, gimmie.... .

Now truthfully, what I had in mind{principaly} was a patron not into bling who would don the award as a focal point....thus...

XXXXXXXXX

Joe blow citizen



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So aimlessy wondering thru the D&D I happen upon this guy. What do I see? Someone who has at least 3 kids here and is proud of the fact. Does that give me a warm quishy that this member had the option and choose to implement it? Yes it does..Indeedy do....

Now is there any diffenerence in merit between them....Nope..... Are they equaly deserving in acknoweledgement? Yeppers peppers....You bet...

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I oppose this. There is a lot of satisfaction and prestige associated with having a client; I've been proud to patronize every single one of mine. They propagate your name, what more incentive do we need? Besides, I can only see this leading to a mad rush to patronize anyone and everyone who's remotely worthy, just to get the shiny medal. Diluting the pool of people that make up this Curia definitely won't solve any problems it has.

what more incentive do we need?

In your case....none.

Besides, I can only see this leading to a mad rush to patronize anyone and everyone who's remotely worthy, just to get the shiny medal.

That would fall under the subpar applications, that supposedly would flood in. Like I said the 1st one or two of these put on public display would deter the rest....

Diluting the pool of people that make up this Curia definitely won't solve any problems it has.

As a habitual CdeCer, I'm somewhat surprized that you would sell your brothers/sisters so short. This whole notion of the institution of citizenship being somehow "watered down", I find extremely hard to shallow. I may well be the worst of the nanzy-pansy blow heart liberals when it comes to meeting out infraction/displinary punishments, but no one nuclear detonates like me when I lay eyes or a garbage application.

Hmmm...the curia and it's existence: The vain hope that one day, some guy/girl will roll up in here and throw down the next "Bees Kness" epiphany...It's what I live for actually...

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Wow...look at the time, gonna have to get back to this tomorrow...

[Boustrophedon]

Look around you and have a good look at where you are....

* On a gaming site, imersed and deep fried with roleplay from one end to the other.

I'm not roleplaying in the Curia. I'm just myself and I post my true sentiments on matters presented here. There's no roleplaying involved for me...

* On a gaming site that has utilized the carrot/stick initiative sucessfully for years prior to my arrival here in 2008.

Yes... for staff work, modding work, other contributions. I don't consider patronizing people a contribution at all.

* All the Great houses here compete, if we had a circus maximus or a gladiator's ring, my parent would have thrown my insolent, agressive butt to the lions, long long ago.

I don't know what "House" I am in, nor do I care. Honestly I'd be curious to see how many people still think of members according to the House they are in. The idea of groups of citizens competing to see who can have the most clients seems incredibly pathetic. Perhaps in the early days of the Curia and the forum in general it might have been such a novelty that people wanted to get all the good clients in their little social club and I am the first to acknowledge that the comraderie there and then must have been a great thing.

But this is 2012 and I seriously doubt people still vote for, support or follow fellow House members in Curia matters. If they did then they should be ashamed of themselves because they are trying to improve their little club rather than the site as a whole.

* Might this spark an individual to try to atain the award's highest level...perhaps. Good then, more deserving folks that got acknoweldged and hopefully a few more corpulent badge wearers strolling around the curia, hopefully casting a vote here and there, but also dropping notions and ideas about this and that.

Giving medals to citizens who patronize alot won't influence patrons bringing in new and underappreciated members. It's a fallacy to assume that. If they truly were deserving then somebody will have offered already. I always thought there was the unwritten rule that if you weren't asked then you weren't ready.

* To the notion that acknoweleging patrons somehow dilutes the institution of citizenship....Sorry but I just don't buy that...

Acknowledging them? Great! Giving them a bronze medal for such a tiny bit of work? Sorry, but not if I can help it. For reference, I think I had written about 20-40 hours worth of work for staff publications when I got my bronze quill. To be fairly honest, the idea of somebody getting a medal for writing 3 paragraphs is ridiculous. How much time and effort goes into that? Finding a good member, sending some pm's back and forth and then writing a paragraph... Maybe an hour work, if it's that much?

Patronization should be about giving members a chance to have their say in site matters, rather than a glorification of the patron's client-seeking skills. Still opposed to your bill sorry, Mega

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Patronization should be about giving members a chance to have their say in site matters, rather than a glorification of the patron's client-seeking skills. Still opposed to your bill sorry, Mega

That folks show up and throw their true feelings down. It's the most that we could ask of one another. Kudos for speaking your mind and holding true to your convictions.....

Whoops, got's to go. Hopefully tomorrow an epiphany will appear, allowing me to emasculate your points......

[Akaie]

My first response would be: a solid proposal .

I'm not quite prepared to throw my lot in, though, largely due to Boustophedon's last point.

...I will ponder in depth, as I digitally blow the brains out of people or perhaps do that super monk spin thingy in Diablo.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Just a question. What if a patron is already successfully patronized 3 citizen (awarded bronze) and later after some time one of the citizen has demoted (ostrakon or whatever you call it). What happen then ?

In any case I do not support it because I believe that it will lead to competitions and probably stealing candidates which later on make citizenship much less and less valuable.