Rehash of Phalangites

**Adamar** · May 17, 2012, 09:10 AM

Hello all

I have a proposal that i have tested on jirisys mod for EB

Instead of the current stat differences between Militia, Professional and Elite Phalangites, we model the density of a cohort along with lesser state differences.

For example

Militia Phalangites (Phantodapoi, Machmoi) - Stay unchanged

Professional Phalangites (Prezetairoi, Greek Phalangites, Klerouchi, Macedon reformed) - Have higher density formation, so pikes are more concentrated relative to militia grade, this reflects professionalism and skill keeping formation. They only have slightly better stats, as the attack of a unit with a sarissa will not change much really. And once the formation breaks they are screwed vs sword units.

Elite Phalangites (Argyraspides, Chaonion Agema, Chalkaspides etc) - Have the same high density formation of professional phalangites, but also higher stats similar to what we see now.

The conclusion will result in a better representation of the class differentiation of phalangites.

Also I think the macedon reformed should have longer sarissas, but lower stats - as in the hellenistic age sarissas were much longer than alexanders age.

I have included a mod for this, just copy over existing one. Also bulks polybian triaria to 120 men on huge rather than 82. Same with Elite infantry of italic isles.

**smoesville** · May 17, 2012, 09:37 AM

Seems interesting, i like that it's not done through stats of attack etc. I may give it a go. Does it bring any balance issues for the Ai fighting other unit types? As in do the new phalangites wipe the floor/get smashed in battle compared to the previous version.

**Adamar** · May 17, 2012, 09:51 AM

Profession and elite phalangites are stronger overall. They may need balancing by reduction of stats a little. But they do get hit harder by arrows and javelins and charges from behind.

Phantodapoi Phalangites vs Pezhetairoi is a steamroll. Pezhetairoi beat them nearly 2 times over. This is proportional to the upkeep cost i think.

It looks awesome when comparing Militia to Elite phalangites

**Casual Tactician** · May 18, 2012, 01:12 AM

Did you use the "secret" radius-value for this?

A tighter radius (ie. below the stanard, "secret" 0.4) makes units a good deal stronger in melee.

[radius](may not be visible) : Hidden attribute radius of the unit. The default value is 0.4. It's the area surrounding each single soldier that he "occupies" as the engine perceives it (not visually that is). Small radius makes a unit fight better, in that it allows soldiers to fight more closely to each other, resulting in more men of the small-radius unit fighting against fewer of the enemy one's. - from here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344

I used some ideas from here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=188651, to give hoplites (and similar units) a dense formation even if they are not in guard mode - which is nice, esp. when the AI uses the hoplites (or similar units). But it also requires a little nerfing at the same time (eg. less attack, less lethality, or less whatnot...), to not make these units OP.

Apart from that, imho the Phalangitai in general are quite strong already. I've nerfed all phalanx units in my personal EDU a little - and I often play Hellenic factions! Though a tighter formation for more elite Phalangitai is surely plausible... and doable if their (offensive) stats are nerfed a little, as they (in most cases) already have better armour, better attack and better morale for example.

**Adamar** · May 18, 2012, 03:29 AM

No, just the formation.

I noticed haploi hoplitai were a little overpowered when defensive, this was due to the density of the unit in concentrating spear points and minimizing exposure (but not from behind from my jav cav ^^).

So i copied the formation of hoplites to elite phalangites, and added phalanx formation and now it works i think.

In vanilla you see large rows between each row of soldiers in any phalanx, and the spear points are not very dense.

So i did this mod to rectify this. And add some units to polybian triariai, as i dont see why they should have only 82 units on huge compared to a normal cohorts 162

**z3n** · June 01, 2012, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Casual Tactician

Did you use the "secret" radius-value for this?

radius and phalanx's don't mix well.

**Adamar** · May 18, 2012, 03:32 AM

Your radius thing would work well for hoplites i think.

Yeah i think the stats should be nerfed if the formation is the key to their edge.

1v1 would a holpite soldier kill a swordsman with a shield? Prob not, but in their formation they have the edge.

**Casual Tactician** · May 18, 2012, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by Adamar

1v1 would a holpite soldier kill a swordsman with a shield? Prob not, but in their formation they have the edge.

That's actually quite a complicated matter...

Both standard infantry swords and light spears have 0.13 lethality, and phalangitai even 0.17 in EB. For comparison: short-swords have 0.1, long-swords have 0.225, kopis/falcata have 0.11+ap, overhand cav-spears have 0.15 and cav-lances have 0.33-0.4+ap lethality... full list here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

And as light_spear units (to which phalangitai belong) have, in average, a superior attack compared to sword-units, their -4 defense vs. infantry...

light_spear: Gives default bonus of +8 to defence vs cavalry, and penalty of -4 to defence vs. infantry. Offers less pushing power than spear. - from here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344

is balanced or even over-powered by their better attack skill.

If all other stats are equal, a light_spear unit (with 0.13 lethality and) with an attack value of +4 (or more; compared to an "equal" sword unit) is stronger than that sword unit, as it's superior attack skill overpowers it's -4 defense skill (vs. any other infantry). And phalangitai even have 0.17 lethality already as mentioned.

So if hoplites or phalangitai get extra boni due to tigher formation or tighter radius, that makes them even stronger (due to their highter density = more spear units vs. attackers on the same square meter/foot). Eg: if phalangitai stand closer together, their enemies get "pocked" by more sarissas than usuall --> phalanx (or other units with tighter formation/radius) are more deadly, as they stab (or slash or whatever..) more per enemy...

**Adamar** · May 18, 2012, 05:50 AM

Ah, thanks

Makes sense

**tone** · May 18, 2012, 06:34 AM

Take a look at Aradan's tutorial in the workshop - the lethality figures are best used to balance out variations in the innate "killing power" of different animation skeletons or for making adjustments due to changes in the unit_radius values. I think what you're suggesting is likely to cause significant imbalances because you're thinking that all skeletons have similar lethality. It'll also cause major autocalc imbalances.

It's very well explained there: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111344

For RS2, I calculated an approximate ratio (based on adjusting unit_radius in custom battles) between unit_radius values and the adjustment required to the skeleton's lethality to make each effect cancel the other one out.

**Adamar** · May 18, 2012, 12:58 PM

Is there an imbalance if the unit radius is unmodified, but the formation itself changed? (For the autocalc, battlemap imbalance excluded)

**Ferdiad** · May 18, 2012, 05:31 PM

What do you mean by imbalance? Changing the radius isn't required or needed unless you want to fine tune your combat system.

**Adamar** · May 19, 2012, 08:57 AM

It was mentioned before that unit radius was included in autocalc, so modifying that will change the balance on the strat map.

I was asking if Formation was included in the the autocalc, which i don't this it is.

**Ferdiad** · May 19, 2012, 02:30 PM

It doesn't affect autocalc.

**Adamar** · May 19, 2012, 06:37 PM

Great. For Balance i reduce Pezhetairoi class defence skill a bit, it works well, as if attacked from behind after a dense javelin throw, they are 25% casualties within a minute.