European Stability Mechanism

[Treize]

What is your opinion on the ESM treaty?

Explaination:




Not much good can come from this.
Yet people still insist the EU is not a federalist project.

[Thorn777]

the bail out bonanza is one of those things Verboten by the "federalist" Lisbon treaty and many national procedures, but since the bail-out is "Alternativlos" they learned from the best on how to channel money, which is by them "4000% to GDP foreighn exposed" Luxemburgers.

Yes it sucks, but that is what we do all over...

[Treize]

It is rather scary how the EU can just take money whenever they want without any form of control by the states.

Ofcourse they could just refuse to pay but...

[Rolling Thunder]

But nothing really. They can demand money all they like, but push it too hard and the EU will fold like a house of cards.

[Simeon]

It seems the ESM was necessary to prevent 'financial markets' believing the euro is a lost cause. Through this mechanism, the EU will try to make sure that problems with individual states will be solved in time (probably the reason why there is a seven day thing). No country wants to guarantee money to other countries, but with one market, one currency an individual country needs to do such a thing. As far as I understand it, the member states signed a treaty in which member states would not give money (as in a transaction), but guarantee money (whenever you need it, we will bring it to the ESM). This money is only to be used as a last resort (IMF and such already did their part). By stating the ESM can increase the amount of money, it shows that it is willing to take action in the future as well, whenever necessary.
I know very little about the legal clauses. By creating such a Leviathan the EU shows the world they take their problems seriously and are willing to act accordingly. The video poses questions, rather than clarifying the treaty, it creates fuzziness. The ESM is however not a money gathering machine eager to get more and more money. The amount that is required and stated in the video is based on the amount of debt of possibly problematic countries. It is supposed to be supervised by a board of representatives of member states (those who sign the treaty most likely).
Remember, it is a treaty that still needs to be ratified, made by your democratically chosen leaders. Ratification takes place in a democratically chosen parliament. Either complain about the organisation of democracy, or accept that sometimes decisions are made that are unpopular with the people (not necessarily you).

[Rinan]

Remember, it is a treaty that still needs to be ratified, made by your democratically chosen leaders. Ratification takes place in a democratically chosen parliament. Either complain about the organisation of democracy, or accept that sometimes decisions are made that are unpopular with the people (not necessarily you).

Except that the democratic element of the EU is far lacking. I haven't forgotten how they pushed the European Constitution through as the Lisbon Treaty. When European citizens rejected the constitution a few amendments were made and this time no referendum was held in most countries. How is that democratic?

In the Netherlands the ESM has currently been ratified by our government.... Except that we don't really have a real government, considering it's fallen and new elections are scheduled for September. How is that democratic?

Couple that with the low media attention on the subject (At least here) and it all seems a little bit like we have no choice.

[Mangalore]

Except that the democratic element of the EU is far lacking. I haven't forgotten how they pushed the European Constitution through as the Lisbon Treaty. When European citizens rejected the constitution a few amendments were made and this time no referendum was held in most countries. How is that democratic?
...

How about reading about an issue first?

It is democratic because the Lisbon treaty is a treaty (doh!). In contrast to the constitution it is an amendment to all existing treaties, not a replacement. Since 80% of the constitution were already agreed upon in the collection of EU treaties everyone was following the Lisbon treaty simply had to get rid of the stuff that infringed of constitutions of the member states which -since the largest part of the content was already ratified- was far less than people probably probably expected since there wasn't that much new stuff in there.

The constitution and the treaty try to add more democracy to the EU and that is ironically some of the main tangents of the opposition while simply agreeing via international treaties which doesn't necessitate asking the populace is how things were always done. Obviously it leaves each indvidual country in more control but it also doesn't has a very barrier on what each government of said country has to do to sign up to it.



Other than that Merkel is mostly deciding things based on party politics. Her party will not sign off on anything on EU level without a huge fight because otherwise they will get shred to pieces by the German voters. And they have to maintain the level on appearing tough and pro EU or in both cases they can get cut down by the opposition and public opinion.

It is important that they don't hand out money carelessly and appear tough in negotiations and other countries should note that the complaints and demands have meaning because otherwise the backlash won't be very cute since the danger is that the german public demands that we bolt since we have enough troubles of our own making.

[Rinan]

Actually I do agree that the Lisbon treaty has improved the diplomatic nature of the EU, I just disagree with the way it was introduced. First there was the European constitution which was denied by at least France, the Netherlands, Denmark and Ireland if I remember correctly. In the Netherlands a majority voted against it in a referendum. The Lisbon treaty is as far as I'm aware essentially the European consitution minus a few minor things. In the Netherlands we didn't get another referendum to vote on the Lisbon treaty. Why not? Why did our government sign a treaty which is not much different from the earlier rejected constitution without asking us first?

It presents the image that the opinion of the people doesn't actually matter.

[Treize]

Being able to force countries to give money is going way too far.

But ofcourse, why complain when you are on the recieving end...

[fkizz]

Treize you've exposed on TWC another unpleasant truth that those people who bought the "shiny EU" propaganda won't like to swallow, and will make some of those reason it out on how this is perfectly OK, and some of those will even say that this is a good sign.

PS- or play that its irrelevant

[Thorn777]

Yes a real revelation...

[Exarch]

what happens if you don't pay?
do they break your legs?

also, i approve cuz that's exactly how it was in my campaign where my vassals had to pay me money

[magpie]

We in Ireland will have to borrow the money to pay our share. Sort of a sick joke! I think they worked out our share as 11.5 billion to start with.

[fkizz]

A bad share of EU "democracy" in action.

[Caelifer_1991]

The Eurozone economy needs further centralisation and cooperation on a larger scale, and needs the strength to make decisive actions without months or years of debate. It also requires the ability to reallocate funds to where they are needed whenever they are needed in times of economic crisis. This doesn't bother me, infact, quite the opposite, it would bother me if something like this wasn't created.

[magpie]

Hmm. The ESM has not been set up yet and the queue for bailout cash has already started. Ireland and Spain have put down their marker,s for bank bail out funds.

[justicar5]

Hmm. The ESM has not been set up yet and the queue for bailout cash has already started. Ireland and Spain have put down their marker,s for bank bail out funds.

the terrible irony for Spain is that before the crash they where running a surplus, it was the banks that imploded not government debt. All that lovely holiday property that no one wanted any more was mortgaged to the hilt.

[Treize]

Netherlands: 1579-2012

Rest in peace.


The names of those who sold us all out to the EUSSR will be noted.



And now, how do I apply for a Canadian residence permit???
I don't wanna be a ' European'.

[pchalk]

lol and i just moved to germany. good timing?

[Treize]

Well they pull alot of strings but it seems even Germany cannot dictate the course anymore that the Eurocrats plot.

Being in this glorified debt union is unhealth for the richer half (or should I say quarter?) for obvious reasons. Fortunatly the eurofederalist project is plotting a path to disaster for itself, unfortunatly it will do ALOT of damage to my country before it will finally come to an end.